U. S. Defense Budget

[vodkazvictim]

U.S. public debt can be controlled. We can fix our federal budget deficit before U. S. debt gets unwieldy like in Japan.

So, to control US debt we should throw money at the military?

I've only been on 16s, so I can only give you a limited view on some of these things.

The 22 is actually a very, very capable airplane, though a lot of what I here is second hand. Whether it's worth the price tag or not, I don't know. The OBOGS issue is a really strange from my POV, F-16CJ's use an OBOGS system and there have been no events like with the 22 that I've heard of. There are some other issues with weapons compatibility, and its onboard maintenance system. A lot of those issues have since been worked out with the later models, but again the O2 issue remains a mystery, and the Raptor pilots are fairly upset about it.

The Warthogs need to be kept in service for awhile. I dare say it's the perfect CAS plane. The only thing I'd change from the A-10C is maybe look at an engine upgrade to coax a little more speed out of them, as a lot of WWII fighters can out run the thing. It wouldn't be anything drastic, most likely taking a civilian engine type.

I don't think I could say too much on the PAK FA, it's still in the prototype stage. It does look to be on par with the best NATO jets, though. As for the XL, it was supposedly in direct competition with the F-15E for a ground attack aircraft. Obviously, the Strike Eagle won out. FYI, with a GE-129 engine, one of the XL's achieved super-cruise.

That brings me to the F-5, which the AF never really used out side of training operations. The most it was used for was as an aggressor aircraft, which the Navy is still flying them for.

I suspect the OBOGs issue is a way of keeping on getting development money out of the program but being able to instantly complete it once the buyer gets fed up. Same thing happening with the Eurofighter, which is surely no coincidence as they're from essentially the same company, which is presumably why a USAF air force general refused to say that the F22 was better than the Eurofighter (incidentally, another USAF general claimed the Su27 was superior to the F15).

I dare agree with your assessment of the A10, though I was aware of what you said regarding the F16XL (and believe that for that mission a 2 engine aircraft is preferable) and I didn't really see you evaluate the F5 IMHO.

As for Pak Fa, I'm waiting for it to be cancelled like it's predecessors.

I'd like to see the A10 with a smaller chaingun. We're not facing the possibility of Soviet main battle tanks in the Fulda Gap anymore. A 20mm or even a .50 cal would be a smaller, lighter gun with a bigger ammo payload. Obviously the hardpoints on the wings would remain, and using armor piercing ammo will at least disable armor if it came down to it. With the way things have shaped up, the 30mm is kind of like swatting flies with a shotgun.

Oh I dunno, to my mind that big chaingun, firing air bursting 30MM munition designed for soft targets is just the ticket. If you really wanted to add .50 cal, why not strap one on the edge of each wing and just run an ammo belt the length of the wing? Or even just add a podded 20mm or .50 like they did with the F4 in Vietnam? Or am I just being stupid, as usual?

 

[spacearrow99]

So, to control US debt we should throw money at the military?

The President and Congress need to fix entitlement programs and agree on a new tax plan that would raise government revenues. I would be happy with more military cuts, but I doubt Congress and the President will make drastic cuts.

 

[CptHa]

I suspect the OBOGs issue is a way of keeping on getting development money out of the program but being able to instantly complete it once the buyer gets fed up.

That's a pretty fucked up way of making money if you're right, especially in light of the fact that Lockheed is set to make hand over fist with the F-35. No evidence for it, but it wouldn't be the dirtiest thing I've heard a company do.

...I didn't really see you evaluate the F5 IMHO.

I don't really have a frame of reference for it outside of an old design. I have tried to look up its combat record, but none of what was from truly credible sources. What I did see was a modest kill:loss ratio in air to air, and horrendous losses from ground fire (something indicative of US fighters of the period). This is one such site I looked at, again, not the most credible place.

As for Pak Fa, I'm waiting for it to be cancelled like it's predecessors.

I wouldn't be so sure of it's cancellation, India is helping with the project funding. They are in the market for a 5th gen fighter, possibly to counter the Chinese development of two jets of the type, the J-20 and J-31. Also, they probably want to get a leg up on Pakistan, which I don't think has the funds to get such an aircraft.

 

[spacearrow99]

I wouldn't be so sure of it's cancellation, India is helping with the project funding. They are in the market for a 5th gen fighter, possibly to counter the Chinese development of two jets of the type, the J-20 and J-31. Also, they probably want to get a leg up on Pakistan, which I don't think has the funds to get such an aircraft.

The Russians are not happy with a U. S. European missile defense in Eastern Europe. The Russians said they had technology that would defeat the defense system. Over the last five years, the Russians have developed 3 new ICBM and/or SLBM. The Russians are testing a fourth new strategic missile system the Avangard ICBM. ICBMs and SLBM are extremely expensive weapons systems. Russia has the money to build PAK-FA.

http://russianforces.org/blog/2013/06/russia_continues_tests_of_new.shtml

 

[vodkazvictim]

The President and Congress need to fix entitlement programs and agree on a new tax plan that would raise government revenues. I would be happy with more military cuts, but I doubt Congress and the President will make drastic cuts.

...
:dunno:

That's a pretty fucked up way of making money if you're right, especially in light of the fact that Lockheed is set to make hand over fist with the F-35. No evidence for it, but it wouldn't be the dirtiest thing I've heard a company do.

I don't really have a frame of reference for it outside of an old design. I have tried to look up its combat record, but none of what was from truly credible sources. What I did see was a modest kill:loss ratio in air to air, and horrendous losses from ground fire (something indicative of US fighters of the period). This is one such site I looked at, again, not the most credible place.

I wouldn't be so sure of it's cancellation, India is helping with the project funding. They are in the market for a 5th gen fighter, possibly to counter the Chinese development of two jets of the type, the J-20 and J-31. Also, they probably want to get a leg up on Pakistan, which I don't think has the funds to get such an aircraft.

It's just my suspicion of what Lockheed are up to. I have no proof.
So you're saying that you don't have the info to review the 5. That's fair enough.
Oh I dunno, it wouldn't be the first time a multinational project has been cancelled (Europanzer). I'm amazed F35 wasn't cancelled.

The Russians are not happy with a U. S. European missile defense in Eastern Europe. The Russians said they had technology that would defeat the defense system. Over the last five years, the Russians have developed 3 new ICBM and/or SLBM. The Russians are testing a fourth new strategic missile system the Avangard ICBM. ICBMs and SLBM are extremely expensive weapons systems. Russia has the money to build PAK-FA.

http://russianforces.org/blog/2013/06/russia_continues_tests_of_new.shtml

They may have the money, but do they have the will to see a project through and spend yet more money? They cancelled Su47 Berkut and MiG1.44 Flatpack and Su37 Terminator production was reversed (Will we see the F35 discarded in a similar fashion?).

 

[CptHa]

...
Will we see the F35 discarded in a similar fashion?

The short answer is no. USAF leadership is committed to the program, too much money invested at this point to come away with nothing. Delivery has already started for some squadrons.

 

[vodkazvictim]

This thread has died.
Lets see if this, particularly around the 6 minute mark, revives it. Got Angliski subs for you.

 

[spacearrow99]

A new Army procurement program was brought to my attention today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Vertical_Lift

Bell V-280 Valor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O3Onyas984

JMR-Ultra part of FVL seems like a money pit.

 

[CptHa]

This thread has died.
Lets see if this, particularly around the 6 minute mark, revives it. Got Angliski subs for you.

If I'm not mistaken, weren't fighters like the Su-27 and MiG-29 designed to counter 4th gen NATO aircraft? With the Flanker entering service a good bit later than the F-15, it's not all that surprising that it would have the upper hand in some parameters. However, like the pilot in the clip, when the aircraft are closely matched, it's going to be the pilot that decides the battle.

 

[vodkazvictim]

AWACS' would get shot down if they were protected by F-5s. I know of capabilities the F-22 and those of current 4th and 4.5 generation aircraft. The F-22 can spot and shoot down those planes well before they can ever see the F-22 on radar. The F-22 has never been defeated in training exercises. Iraqi and Afghani air defenses did not warrant the use of the F-22.

The Russian did not have the money to develop the planes you mentioned. The Russian government is starting to procure the Su-35. The Russians are rearming their military and PAK-FA will not get cancelled.

Just gonna throw these out there. I've also heard that French Mirages have got onto the Raptor's tail in mock dogfights.
NOTE: These videos do not necessarily represent my point of view, I am fully aware that they may display bias. I am merely trying to widen the viewpoint and provoke discussion on the subject.




And before you slag off the opinions of the man in this video, I invite you to remember that he designed both the A10 and F16 and thus both he and his opinion deserve respect.

Oh please. Just how long are we supposed to wait? The craptor was conceived in the disco era for pete's sake!

In the interests of Academic honesty...
Source of F22 Raptor conceived in the disco era:
In 1981 the U.S. Air Force developed a requirement for an Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) as a new air superiority fighter to replace the F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon.

Apparently I was wrong. By two years.
At any range? So, from 5000 km away?
Of course the f22 should be able to get first shot against the Pak-Fa; it's american.
Sources on both statements please.

You don't seriously expect sources on the other two, given they were obviously jokes, do you?

The PAK-FA can shoot down the F-5 from the maximum range of the R-33/37 missiles. How is F-5 going to evade R-37 missiles? It does not have the maneuverability or AN/APG-77 AESA of the F-22.

I said the F-22 should be to get the first shot against PAK-FA. It depends on the PAK-FA's RCS and AESA N050 radar. You to provide sources for your comments.

Here are the RCS numbers for the F-22 and F-35.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm

Sources on anything else?

A new Army procurement program was brought to my attention today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Vertical_Lift

Bell V-280 Valor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O3Onyas984

JMR-Ultra part of FVL seems like a money pit.

I'' have a look at these later...

If I'm not mistaken, weren't fighters like the Su-27 and MiG-29 designed to counter 4th gen NATO aircraft? With the Flanker entering service a good bit later than the F-15, it's not all that surprising that it would have the upper hand in some parameters. However, like the pilot in the clip, when the aircraft are closely matched, it's going to be the pilot that decides the battle.

I believe they were. I believe your correct...

 

[spacearrow99]

Just gonna throw these out there. I've also heard that French Mirages have got onto the Raptor's tail in mock dogfights.

Sources on anything else?

The F-22 was designed primarily for BVR aerial warfare. The F-22 still can outmaneuver most 4- 4.5 generation aircraft. Current 4-4.5 generation aircraft pilots have a decent chance against the F-22 in WVR aerial warfare. Most military experts think the PAK-FA will be easily the most maneuverable fifth generation fighter.

You know some of your sources backup my statements.

 

[vodkazvictim]

AWACS' would get shot down if they were protected by F-5s. I know of capabilities the F-22 and those of current 4th and 4.5 generation aircraft. The F-22 can spot and shoot down those planes well before they can ever see the F-22 on radar. The F-22 has never been defeated in training exercises. Iraqi and Afghani air defenses did not warrant the use of the F-22.

The Russian did not have the money to develop the planes you mentioned. The Russian government is starting to procure the Su-35. The Russians are rearming their military and PAK-FA will not get cancelled.

Oh please. Just how long are we supposed to wait? The craptor was conceived in the disco era for pete's sake!

At any range? So, from 5000 km away?
Of course the f22 should be able to get first shot against the Pak-Fa; it's american.
Sources on both statements please.

And no military anywhere ever lies about the capabilities of it's hardware, the american military least of all.

So what? What if after one engagement newer jets, heavier with fuel and capabilities, lost?

Because the F5 was never considered for nor pressed into use as a ground attack aircraft? Because with it's maintenance and fuel economy in terms of both time and money, it's actually better suited than most fighters to the role.

The teens cruise subsonic with a weapons load, just like the F5. Top speed really isn't that big a deal; there has only been one supersonic dogfight kill in history.
Even if the teens do get there fractionally faster than the F5, with the F5s economy and quick turn around times it gets there cheaper and has the benefit of being able to be kept in the air (by comparison) constantly.
Aren't the larger fuel loads of the teens offset by their higher fuel consumption?

It's not just low price tag, it's low maintenance and running costs and ease of flight.
When all america's multi-zeta-trillion dollar uber fighters have been shot down she'll need a fighter she can mass produce quickly.
We saw america win the battle of production in WW2, defeating Germany's superior tanks with inferior M4s. See the paralell?
And you say up to par, but just how much do fighters really need all the features they have? Feature creep much?

I think people have a tendency to pick sides and argue points out of stubbornness, hence why I'm not mentioning some of the advantages of the teen series over the F5 (which I would offset with AWACS usage) and you're not seeing the benefits (and there are a great many) of the F5.

A new Army procurement program was brought to my attention today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Vertical_Lift

Bell V-280 Valor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O3Onyas984

JMR-Ultra part of FVL seems like a money pit.

The F-22 was designed primarily for BVR aerial warfare. The F-22 still can outmaneuver most 4- 4.5 generation aircraft. Current 4-4.5 generation aircraft pilots have a decent chance against the F-22 in WVR aerial warfare. Most military experts think the PAK-FA will be easily the most maneuverable fifth generation fighter.

You know some of your sources backup my statements.

I only put up one source in that post.

 

[spacearrow99]

I only put up one source in that post.

I retract my last statement.

 

[spacearrow99]

US Scraps Tons Of Gear As It Leaves Afghanistan

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...o-scrap-7-billion-in-equipment-in-afghanistan

 

[vodkazvictim]

Since I love this kind of thing...

 

[spacearrow99]

Vodka,

The U. S. Army is reorganizing and making big personnel and unit cuts.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013/06/25/us/politics/ap-us-army-cuts.html?ref=politics&_r=0

Each brigade combat team is gaining an maneuver battalion. Each Combined Arms and Infantry BCT is becoming much stronger.

 

[vodkazvictim]

Vodka,

The U. S. Army is reorganizing and making big personnel and unit cuts.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2013/06/25/us/politics/ap-us-army-cuts.html?ref=politics&_r=0

Each brigade combat team is gaining an maneuver battalion. Each Combined Arms and Infantry BCT is becoming much stronger.

That's great; cut out the guys who do the work to keep useless things like F35 afloat.

 

[spacearrow99]

That's great; cut out the guys who do the work to keep useless things like F35 afloat.

Its a shame, U. S. troops deal with a ton crap while serving their country. Take out combat operations and just focus on troops daily hygiene at a FOB. Troops live like animals not taking baths months at a time, wearing the dirty uniforms until they fall apart, MREs make troops constipated, and its extremely unpleasant to go to the head/latrine. Dysentery is still a major problem for deployed troops.

There will be cuts to the F-35 program.

 

[spacearrow99]

http://hamptonroads.com/2013/08/cutting-back-aircraft-carriers-distinct-possibility

http://www.army.mil/article/106893/Reorganization_hits_brigade_combat_teams/

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/art...308070025/Cuts-DoD-review-too-big-experts-say

I think we should withdrawn most of the U. S. Forces stationed Japan. China will probably become the world's leader in defense spending by 2022. India is also building up its military at a fast rate.

 

[HehehehehehehehehehahaHyena]

Seriously. if you want a working military you need to spend money. Duh