To the people who watch the NBA, and who like MJ

[veam]

kobe:
plays better man to man defense
more VERSATILE scorer
more SKILLFUL passer
better LEADER
takes less shots
81 points

pippen:
LED the bulls to SIX rings
better passer
better REBOUNDER
better shot blocker
200steals and 100 blocks!!

lebron:
better rebounder
better leader
better shot blocker
better LEADER

magic:
better passer
better rebounder
more VERSATILE
won the finals MVP in his ROOKIE YEAR(it took jordan about 8 years until he would rob pippen for the final MVP)

robertson:
Meet me on the court an Im trouble,last week fucked around and got a triple double
basically averaged a triple double in his ROOKIE year
the ONLY play to ever average a triple double FACT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

kobe:In the last 10 years NBA competition has grown to a skill level never before seen. With un-paralleled athletes like Vince Carter, Lebron James, Dwayne Wayde, Allen Iverson, and Tracy McGrady the NBA has ushered in a new era of talent. If you look at that list of athletes there is one obvious superstar missing, Kobe Bryant.

Kobe has separated himself from every other person on this planet so viscously it's sick. This season alone scoring 10 50-point games. Michael Jordan is usually referred to as one of the best basketball players, if not the best of all time. And there is no denying he is great. But to truly compare and contrast the two superstars you must look at contributing factors in play, not just stats and titles.

In this age of basketball the game has developed into a highly spectated sport and career. The ability to study other athletes is more accessible for players around the league. Therefore it is easier to defend superstars. Athletes around the league scout and study Kobe Bryant's moves yet still can't defend them.

Coaches double him, players triple him, and Kobe mixes em. The mentality of Kobe Bryant is incomparable. He manages to get inside the heads of his defenders, every shot he takes is taken like no one is in his face. The confidence is supreme. Kobe doesn't just think, he knows he will make every shot.

Kobe Bryant is the most prolific scorer in NBA history. He is the youngest player to score 18 thousand points. He is the youngest athlete named to the NBA All-Defensive Team, an honor he has achieved five times. He is the youngest person to ever win the NBA dunk competition. Kobe stunned fans on a magical unforgettable February night when he dropped 81 points on the Toronto Raptors, the second highest single game score in NBA history. In a game against Dallas in the 05-06 season Kobe Bryant outscored the entire Maverick team through three quarters.

pippen:
Pippen was the true LEADER. MJ did nothing w/o Pippen. Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins and a playoff series win w/o MJ in 94 and led the Bulls in pts, rebs, asts, stls, and blks in 95. 2 things that MJ was NEVER able to do w/o Pippen.

Pippen was a better all around player than MJ.

SP career minutes: 41069
MJ career minutes: 41013
(almost identical)

SP career assists: 6135
MJ career assists: 5633

SP career rebounds: 7494
MJ career rebounds: 6672

SP career blocks: 947
MJ career blocks: 893

lebron:

Both LeBron James and Michael Jordan are/were explosive offensive players with great playmaking ability, and have/had the ability to change a game in an instant. While some players start slow and need time to learn and grow within the NBA, Jordan and James started off their careers with a ####. In each player’s first career game, Jordan notched 16 points while James scored 25 points. Both players not only went on to win the Rookie of the Year award, but also joined former NBA great Oscar Robertson as the only players to average at least 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists per game in their opening season. In addition, take into consideration the following statistical comparison, which states each player’s season averages for field goal percentage (FG%), three point field goal percentage (3PT%), free throw percentage (FT%), offensive rebounds per game (ORPG), assists per game (APG), points per game (PPG), and turnovers (TO).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeez, where to begin...

Jordan's defense was definitely overrated to a certain extent. The Bulls were never recognized as a good defensive team during Jordan's first couple of years with the team. It wasn't until they acquired Grant and Pippen that Jordan even MADE the all-defense team.

Jordan made guys better? Like who?

Horace Grant played 17 years in the NBA. B.J. Armstrong played 11 years in the NBA... the ONLY time EITHER of these guys EVER made the all star team was 1994... the year Jordan was retired. Pippen got BOTH of these guys to an all star game.

The 90s had Ewing, Olajuwon and Robinson (and later on, Shaq)... but the NBA was not totally dominated by big men... most of the big men in the NBA sucked during the 90s. Luc Longley sucked...Bill Cartwright sucked....

Between Moses Malone in 1983 and Shaq in 2000, the only big men to win the MVP award were Olajuwon and Robinson...and they did it in the two years Jordan was retired (1994 and 1995).

The 90s also saw a HUGE influx of high school players who were not ready for the NBA. Of COURSE it's easier for a guy like Jordan to dominate that kind of a league, not only full of high school players but also several expansion teams, the immediate impact of which is always to dilute the talent level of each team.


Let's also not forget that David Stern helped Jordan immensely by instituting a number of rule changes, not the least of which was to MOVE THE THREE POINT LINE IN. Here are Jordan's 3 point FG percentages, year by year...

1985 - 17.3%
1986 - 16.7% (only played 18 games)
1987 - 18.2%
1988 - 13.2%
1989 - 27.6%
1990 - 37.6%
1991 - 31.2%
1992 - 27.0%
1993 - 35.2%
1995 - 50.0% (played 17 games)
1996 - 42.7%
1997 - 37.4%
1998 - 23.8 %
2002 - 18.9%
2003 - 29.1%

Wanna guess when the 3 point line was moved in?

Do we need to go into how traveling was no longer called, nor was palming the ball? (of course, it's not Jordan's fault that these rules were never enforced with him... he was smart to take advantage of the fact that the refs were never going to call him for these violations).

In his post-Jordan career, Pippen reached the Western Conference finals... Jordan never even made it into the second round without Pippen... Pippen also got the Bulls to the 2nd round in 1994, when the press predicted that they would be lucky to win 15 games without Michael.

Jordan's career playoff record without Pippen was about 1 win and 10 loses. This hardly suggests a player who should be considered the GOAT.

Pippen also made the All-Defensive team with Chicago, Portland and Houston . He played great defense no matter where he was... In fact, he made the all-defensive team FOUR times WITHOUT having Jordan as a teammate. Jordan never made the all-defensive team without Pippen. Jordan is one of the most overrated defenders in NBA history.

It's easy to say that James Worthy would be a hall of famer no matter where he played, but that's far from a foregone conclusion. Worthy had drawbacks in his offensive game, but didn't have to worry about these things being exposed, because Magic used Worthy's skills perfectly. Worthy was better as a #3 option on offense than he would have been playing for the Clippers as the franchise player.

As for Kareem, he was ready to retire by 1978. He'd won an MVP award in 1977, and dominated Bill Walton in the Western Conference Finals (although the Blazers swept the Lakers, Jabbar outplayed Walton in 3 of the 4 games, usually be huge margins)... but Kareem was sick and tired of busting his a$$ out there every night, and he was ready to call it quits. He hung on for a couple of more years, getting blown out each time by Seattle in the playoffs, and he was totally frustrated. Along came Magic, and Kareem "magically" was able to last another 10 years in the NBA, including some dominant wins against the greatest front line of all time, the Parrish/Bird/McHale Celtics.... and Kareem went on to become the 5th leading scorer of the 1980s, after being the leading scorer for the decade of the 70s.

Finally, there is not ONE player in the entire NBA during the 80s or early 90s that would have taken Jordan to have as a team mate over Magic. EVERYONE wanted to play with Magic, because he truly made his teammates better. Guys were taking less money to go play with the Lakers and Magic because of what he did for his teammates. Anyone ever do that with Jordan?

Jordan never made ANYONE better. As I said, Pippen made all stars out of Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong. Historians will look at that feat and ask "how the f*** did he DO THAT???" The answer is simple... magic.

And the 90s were HUGELY watered down.

So you complain that you're gonna hear about "Jordan didn't win without Pippen, etc". Well, HE DIDN'T. You're calling him the greatest of all time because he won 6 titles ... are you aware that 6 titles isn't a record??? Probably not. Well, it isn't.

Oh, and Bob McAdoo is a Hall of Famer ONLY because of his association with Magic...prior to his arrival with the Lakers, he was said to be a malingerer and a loser

 

[Jagger69]

I applaud the time and research you put into this post but if all you are interested in is individual statistics, guess you'd be right. All things considered, Kobe can't hold MJ's jockstrap when it comes to pure star-power....plus 6 NBA titles didn't hurt. Subjective for sure but I still say MJ is the greatest ever....for a lot of reasons.

Good topic....

 

[ChefChiTown]

Jordan never made ANYONE better.

In the Members Only section, you'll find the "Share A Joke" thread. This post should've been put in there, not here.

 

[squallumz]

jordan never made anyone better?

i strongly disagree. jordan brought made the team stronger. i remember phil jackson saying how jordan helped to basically coach the team. that the strategies and leadership he possessed was incredible.

granted he was born to play basketball, he still brought camaraderie which does, in fact, make the team better.

dont get me wrong, legends like scottie pippen and steve kurr and the awesome talents of tony kukoc, luc longley, horace grant, bj armstrong, and even dennis rodman made the whole thing possible; mj could not have done it on his own. that team played as a team. not like the antics of kobe bryant and the lakers.

i do admit, kobe has learned to pass the ball more as of late but the legendary leadership and camaraderie is what will make mj the ultimate player ever. there are more things than pure talent that do make a difference. that is why kobe doesnt rank in the same area that mj does.

 

[veam]

Pippen has way better career stats, so it was pippen who led the bulls and made the players better,not jordan.
jordan is a ballhog.

 

[RealMenSwallow]

Scotty is great, there is absolutely no doubt about it. But you can't sit here and say either of them are better players. Do you know all the great players on the Bulls? You may hate Dennis Rodman, but fact of the matter is, he was still a great player and rebounder. You can't simply state that one player is ever better than another, because it doesn't work like that. Someone may take over the limelight, but the entire team is what makes a game worth watching. No one watches Kobe. Because it is just fucking Kobe. Since Shaq left, he is no longer fun to watch. And as for LeBron, and Carmello Anthony, and all the newer guys: basketball just isn't the same. Especially not right now. And I'm not interested in watching a one man team.

Was Jordan Great? Sure, but he wasn't a one man team. No one ever said that.

 

[squallumz]

a ball hog??! omg. i think pippen was a legend. i love the man but i wouldnt go to call jordan a ballhog.

think about it and look back. jordan came to posses the ball quite often. why?

rebounds and passes. he didnt go around stealing the ball from anyone. taking terrible shots everytime. (like kobe) he passed the ball. probably passed it more than anyone did since he possessed it so much. everyone got involved. kurr and his 3 pointers, pippen and his incredible scoring, check out jordans' assists stats. not bad. look at his rebounds.

pippen was a key factor in the championships for sure. as was kurr, as was everyone else. but jordan was no ball hog. pippen was incredible and did help, as jordan helped, as kurr helped, as kukoc helped. no single player did it on their own and thats why they won so much. it was a team game, not a jordan game.

look at the wizards man. when jordan was on em. he let the team play. he scored low. on purpose. my proof? remember his 55 point game he had on the wizards? he didnt want to be the primary ball possessor or scorer. he wanted to teach his new team and all his rookies to be a TEAM. people talked shit on jordan, oh he sucks now, blah blah blah. it was bullshit. he was leading the team to learn.

 

[veam]

What?I know plenty of people who watch the lakers just to watch kobe,just like some people used to watch the NBA just to watch jorda.
I know its a team effort,but jordan wasnt the leader of his team.

 

[veam]

a ball hog??! omg. i think pippen was a legend. i love the man but i wouldnt go to call jordan a ballhog.

think about it and look back. jordan came to posses the ball quite often. why?

rebounds and passes. he didnt go around stealing the ball from anyone. taking terrible shots everytime. (like kobe) he passed the ball. probably passed it more than anyone did since he possessed it so much. everyone got involved. kurr and his 3 pointers, pippen and his incredible scoring, check out jordans' assists stats. not bad. look at his rebounds.

pippen was a key factor in the championships for sure. as was kurr, as was everyone else. but jordan was no ball hog. pippen was incredible and did help, as jordan helped, as kurr helped, as kukoc helped. no single player did it on their own and thats why they won so much. it was a team game, not a jordan game.

look at the wizards man. when jordan was on em. he let the team play. he scored low. on purpose. my proof? remember his 55 point game he had on the wizards? he didnt want to be the primary ball possessor or scorer. he wanted to teach his new team and all his rookies to be a TEAM. people talked shit on jordan, oh he sucks now, blah blah blah. it was bullshit. he was leading the team to learn.

no
Jordan is a ballhog.
He averages more FGA than any player in NBA history,thats a fact.
Oh yeah,there have been lots of players who might average around 10-17ppg,who have a career high of around 40. that doesnt mean they choose to score less,they were just hot for one night,like jordan was on the wizards.

 

[RealMenSwallow]

Yes, but the way you put it, sounds like you refer to Kobe as the leader of his team. Which, if anyone is a ball hog in the NBA of all fucking time, it's Kobe, and he's overcome it especially as of late, but when he first started? Good lord. Watch the fuck out. When he gained momentum and everyone knew who Kobe was, he started to think he WAS the Lakers.

 

[squallumz]

if you were to shot the ball often, but yet still pass it. does it still make you a ball hog? how do u think everyone else got their stats? the toothfairy?

 

[veam]

if you were to shot the ball often, but yet still pass it. does it still make you a ball hog? how do u think everyone else got their stats? the toothfairy?

mike had like 5apg,not impressive considering he was playing in the triangle which is made for SG's
his team got points because other people passes the ball,like pippen

 

[veam]

Yes, but the way you put it, sounds like you refer to Kobe as the leader of his team. Which, if anyone is a ball hog in the NBA of all fucking time, it's Kobe, and he's overcome it especially as of late, but when he first started? Good lord. Watch the fuck out. When he gained momentum and everyone knew who Kobe was, he started to think he WAS the Lakers.

I would prefer kobe. He plays better defense,a more VERSATILE score, and is stronger.

 

[RealMenSwallow]

Yet, he's the ONLY reason you watch the Lakers. Which is entirely different from how Jordan was. Yes, they did watch to see MJ, but as you've so eloquently stated many times Scotty Pippen is a better player. So let me ask you this: How did he get all those stats if Jordan was such a ball hog? And as a whole team, of players, especially Scotty and Michael, they won more championships Together than most teams ever will. The roster hardly changed. So you can't say it was just Jordan. Now since the Lakers, can't keep a fucking team together, they switch team members far to often, but there's still Kobe. So. Kobe, is a bigger ball hog, along with being a "team leader" and a way bigger showman, all of which he got from watching Michael Jordan

 

[pitino]

numbers don't say the truth always...without MJ the bulls would be...the today team!

 

[squallumz]

so whats the point of this thread? to talk shit on the best player the nba will ever see?

 

[ChefChiTown]

Pippen has way better career stats, so it was pippen who led the bulls and made the players better,not jordan.
jordan is a ballhog.

A) Stats only tell a small part of the story
B) Please cite these so-called "way better" career stats that you are claiming Pippen to have...

 

[Magnet]

I truely believe Kobe is better than MJ.

The only thing that Kobe has going against him is
1) Number of Championships

 

[Legzman]

kobe:
plays better man to man defense
more VERSATILE scorer
more SKILLFUL passer
better LEADER
takes less shots
81 points

pippen:
LED the bulls to SIX rings
better passer
better REBOUNDER
better shot blocker
200steals and 100 blocks!!

lebron:
better rebounder
better leader
better shot blocker
better LEADER

magic:
better passer
better rebounder
more VERSATILE
won the finals MVP in his ROOKIE YEAR(it took jordan about 8 years until he would rob pippen for the final MVP)

robertson:
Meet me on the court an Im trouble,last week fucked around and got a triple double
basically averaged a triple double in his ROOKIE year
the ONLY play to ever average a triple double FACT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

kobe:In the last 10 years NBA competition has grown to a skill level never before seen. With un-paralleled athletes like Vince Carter, Lebron James, Dwayne Wayde, Allen Iverson, and Tracy McGrady the NBA has ushered in a new era of talent. If you look at that list of athletes there is one obvious superstar missing, Kobe Bryant.

Kobe has separated himself from every other person on this planet so viscously it's sick. This season alone scoring 10 50-point games. Michael Jordan is usually referred to as one of the best basketball players, if not the best of all time. And there is no denying he is great. But to truly compare and contrast the two superstars you must look at contributing factors in play, not just stats and titles.

In this age of basketball the game has developed into a highly spectated sport and career. The ability to study other athletes is more accessible for players around the league. Therefore it is easier to defend superstars. Athletes around the league scout and study Kobe Bryant's moves yet still can't defend them.

Coaches double him, players triple him, and Kobe mixes em. The mentality of Kobe Bryant is incomparable. He manages to get inside the heads of his defenders, every shot he takes is taken like no one is in his face. The confidence is supreme. Kobe doesn't just think, he knows he will make every shot.

Kobe Bryant is the most prolific scorer in NBA history. He is the youngest player to score 18 thousand points. He is the youngest athlete named to the NBA All-Defensive Team, an honor he has achieved five times. He is the youngest person to ever win the NBA dunk competition. Kobe stunned fans on a magical unforgettable February night when he dropped 81 points on the Toronto Raptors, the second highest single game score in NBA history. In a game against Dallas in the 05-06 season Kobe Bryant outscored the entire Maverick team through three quarters.

pippen:
Pippen was the true LEADER. MJ did nothing w/o Pippen. Pippen led the Bulls to 55 wins and a playoff series win w/o MJ in 94 and led the Bulls in pts, rebs, asts, stls, and blks in 95. 2 things that MJ was NEVER able to do w/o Pippen.

Pippen was a better all around player than MJ.

SP career minutes: 41069
MJ career minutes: 41013
(almost identical)

SP career assists: 6135
MJ career assists: 5633

SP career rebounds: 7494
MJ career rebounds: 6672

SP career blocks: 947
MJ career blocks: 893

lebron:

Both LeBron James and Michael Jordan are/were explosive offensive players with great playmaking ability, and have/had the ability to change a game in an instant. While some players start slow and need time to learn and grow within the NBA, Jordan and James started off their careers with a ####. In each player’s first career game, Jordan notched 16 points while James scored 25 points. Both players not only went on to win the Rookie of the Year award, but also joined former NBA great Oscar Robertson as the only players to average at least 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists per game in their opening season. In addition, take into consideration the following statistical comparison, which states each player’s season averages for field goal percentage (FG%), three point field goal percentage (3PT%), free throw percentage (FT%), offensive rebounds per game (ORPG), assists per game (APG), points per game (PPG), and turnovers (TO).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeez, where to begin...

Jordan's defense was definitely overrated to a certain extent. The Bulls were never recognized as a good defensive team during Jordan's first couple of years with the team. It wasn't until they acquired Grant and Pippen that Jordan even MADE the all-defense team.

Jordan made guys better? Like who?

Horace Grant played 17 years in the NBA. B.J. Armstrong played 11 years in the NBA... the ONLY time EITHER of these guys EVER made the all star team was 1994... the year Jordan was retired. Pippen got BOTH of these guys to an all star game.

The 90s had Ewing, Olajuwon and Robinson (and later on, Shaq)... but the NBA was not totally dominated by big men... most of the big men in the NBA sucked during the 90s. Luc Longley sucked...Bill Cartwright sucked....

Between Moses Malone in 1983 and Shaq in 2000, the only big men to win the MVP award were Olajuwon and Robinson...and they did it in the two years Jordan was retired (1994 and 1995).

The 90s also saw a HUGE influx of high school players who were not ready for the NBA. Of COURSE it's easier for a guy like Jordan to dominate that kind of a league, not only full of high school players but also several expansion teams, the immediate impact of which is always to dilute the talent level of each team.


Let's also not forget that David Stern helped Jordan immensely by instituting a number of rule changes, not the least of which was to MOVE THE THREE POINT LINE IN. Here are Jordan's 3 point FG percentages, year by year...

1985 - 17.3%
1986 - 16.7% (only played 18 games)
1987 - 18.2%
1988 - 13.2%
1989 - 27.6%
1990 - 37.6%
1991 - 31.2%
1992 - 27.0%
1993 - 35.2%
1995 - 50.0% (played 17 games)
1996 - 42.7%
1997 - 37.4%
1998 - 23.8 %
2002 - 18.9%
2003 - 29.1%

Wanna guess when the 3 point line was moved in?

Do we need to go into how traveling was no longer called, nor was palming the ball? (of course, it's not Jordan's fault that these rules were never enforced with him... he was smart to take advantage of the fact that the refs were never going to call him for these violations).

In his post-Jordan career, Pippen reached the Western Conference finals... Jordan never even made it into the second round without Pippen... Pippen also got the Bulls to the 2nd round in 1994, when the press predicted that they would be lucky to win 15 games without Michael.

Jordan's career playoff record without Pippen was about 1 win and 10 loses. This hardly suggests a player who should be considered the GOAT.

Pippen also made the All-Defensive team with Chicago, Portland and Houston . He played great defense no matter where he was... In fact, he made the all-defensive team FOUR times WITHOUT having Jordan as a teammate. Jordan never made the all-defensive team without Pippen. Jordan is one of the most overrated defenders in NBA history.

It's easy to say that James Worthy would be a hall of famer no matter where he played, but that's far from a foregone conclusion. Worthy had drawbacks in his offensive game, but didn't have to worry about these things being exposed, because Magic used Worthy's skills perfectly. Worthy was better as a #3 option on offense than he would have been playing for the Clippers as the franchise player.

As for Kareem, he was ready to retire by 1978. He'd won an MVP award in 1977, and dominated Bill Walton in the Western Conference Finals (although the Blazers swept the Lakers, Jabbar outplayed Walton in 3 of the 4 games, usually be huge margins)... but Kareem was sick and tired of busting his a$$ out there every night, and he was ready to call it quits. He hung on for a couple of more years, getting blown out each time by Seattle in the playoffs, and he was totally frustrated. Along came Magic, and Kareem "magically" was able to last another 10 years in the NBA, including some dominant wins against the greatest front line of all time, the Parrish/Bird/McHale Celtics.... and Kareem went on to become the 5th leading scorer of the 1980s, after being the leading scorer for the decade of the 70s.

Finally, there is not ONE player in the entire NBA during the 80s or early 90s that would have taken Jordan to have as a team mate over Magic. EVERYONE wanted to play with Magic, because he truly made his teammates better. Guys were taking less money to go play with the Lakers and Magic because of what he did for his teammates. Anyone ever do that with Jordan?

Jordan never made ANYONE better. As I said, Pippen made all stars out of Horace Grant and B.J. Armstrong. Historians will look at that feat and ask "how the f*** did he DO THAT???" The answer is simple... magic.

And the 90s were HUGELY watered down.

So you complain that you're gonna hear about "Jordan didn't win without Pippen, etc". Well, HE DIDN'T. You're calling him the greatest of all time because he won 6 titles ... are you aware that 6 titles isn't a record??? Probably not. Well, it isn't.

Oh, and Bob McAdoo is a Hall of Famer ONLY because of his association with Magic...prior to his arrival with the Lakers, he was said to be a malingerer and a loser

Who gives a fuck? :dunno:

 

[Will E Worm]

Wilt Chamberlain

He was basketball's unstoppable force, the most awesome offensive force the game has ever seen.

Wilt Chamberlain

:hatsoff: