Perfect War?

[RogueWolf]

I may regret starting this thread...but here goes.

(Maybe I'll be like some of my gym teachers from grade school, just throw a few balls out there, then just sit back and watch) :o

Has there ever been a "perfect war?"

I don't get it sometimes, when I see all this criticism of the current war in Iraq. Not the criticism itself, but some of the attitudes and assumptions underlying the statements made against the war. Like the things that are happening with this war are so new and different from any other war that ever took place in the past.

Has there ever been a war that...
>Didn't have casualties and death?
>Didn't see innocent people getting ******?
>Leaders had all the facts about every aspect of the war before initiating conflict?
>Leaders had a flawless schedule for when conflict would begin and end?
>Citizens were 100% percent behind the war effort?
>Leaders always had the full backing of the rest of the government?
>Had a perfect plan for after the war?

The way I see it...
>War will always have death.
>War will always have innocent death.
>Governments will never know everything about their enemies.
>Wars don't follow schedules.
>There will always be people for peace, and against war.
>Politicians will never agree totally on anything.
>No one knows the future, and what new situations will arise after conflict ends.

So why is it, that it seems to me, that people act like all the issues with the war in Iraq are something new and something that has never happened before?

Even World War II, which may have had the most justified reasons of any war, was far from flawless.

War is called HELL for a reason. If war were fun, if war were a picnic, then it wouldn't be something to be avoided.

I'm all for speaking up, and attempting to end this war quickly, and work for peace and a better world, and to promote justice where justice needs to be initiated. I have no problems with people asking questions where questions need to be asked and answers need to be given.

But WHY does it seem like so many people are just being ignorant, and thinking this war is something so unique, so different, such an exception from any past war?

All this being said, I don't condone everything about this war. I have questions and concerns about any armed conflict. And the longer it goes on, the more questions and concerns I have. But why is this war being held to such a (unfair) higher standard?

I've had all of this on my mind a lot lately, and all of you get to hear me rant about it.

 

[dave_rhino]

To be honest, i dont think anyone has ever called a war "perfect". So i'm not sure what you're trying to get across...

 

[RogueWolf]

As I said, the attitude so many people have about this war. I hear things like...

"Our soldiers are dying!"

"Innocent people are getting ******!"

"The military/government/Bush is not telling the entire truth about (fill in the blank!"

None of these things are new, or unique to this war... But like I said, there seems to be this underlying attitude that all of the negatives with this war are somehow new or different from any other war in the past.

And you're right...no war has ever been or ever been called perfect. So why do people behave like they are so shocked that this one has flaws???

 

[Aegis]

Here it's talked about a lot each and every time one of our soldiers are ******. But we're not a nation used to being at war either. I do think that we have been fortunate at not lost as many soldiers as we might have feared to.

I can say that many here feel like our government has lied to us, because they focused a lot on their "proof" of weapons of mass destruction. It was mentioned over and over again when our government was talking about the need to join the coalition. So I think that many, here at least, have a valid reson to feel lied to in some areas.

As for civilians being ******, I don't think that anyone here really expected that it wouldn't happen. I think that many are just shocked that the civilian death toll is so high and constantly rising.

 

[Iamforever]

And you're right...no war has ever been or ever been called perfect. So why do people behave like they are so shocked that this one has flaws???

the media. back in the old days, the media were not ***** thirsty like they are now. lets take the war that i do think was perfect. i mean perfect in what they were fighting for. WWII. back in those days i bet they were not bashing the president. the people were behind him for the most part. no war can be perfect. i think a better question would be what was a righteous war.

 

[mula0207]

as the saying goes..."everything is fair in love and war." possibly irrelevant to the topic...but to me it means that when at war i think people will **** anyone, go to war over the dumbest things without all the facts, skew facts to make themselves look good...and never ever will there be a war where 100% of the citizen are behind it...there are always those who believe that war should never happen...

 

[Monkey_28]

According to ricky gervais vietnam has the best soundtrack

 

[Christmas_Ape]

According to ricky gervais vietnam has the best soundtrack

Lets not forget the Star Wars soundtrack. So many great numbers.

 

[YMIHERE]

"Sometime they’ll give a war and nobody will come."

Carl Sandburg (1878–1967), U.S. poet.

 

[RogueWolf]

According to ricky gervais vietnam has the best soundtrack

Lets not forget the Star Wars soundtrack. So many great numbers.

Sigh...this is one of the reasons why I hardly ever start or participate in serious threads.

 

[meesterperfect]

Yes IAF is correct, most of it is the Media. They know bad news sells, doom and gloom sells. Conspiracy theories sell.

And the big reason is for whatever reason, The U.S. news media always backs Democrats and condems Republicans.
If a democrat was President the perspective of the news media would be more positive towards the war on ******, 180 degrees, in turn changing societies attitude towards it.
Don't under estimate the power of that box. The TV and other news media have a extremely strong effect on molding and persuading societies perceptions and attitudes , especially over time like in the case of Iraq.

Example, the current Congress has proposed a $400 billion dollar tax increase.
$400,000,000,000.00. The largest ever in history of mankind.
This will hurt the ecomony, lower the value of the dollar dramatically, cause inflation to go sky high, increase unemployment, and most of all take you and your familys money.
Most people in the U.S. dont know this because the TV doesnt mention it much. Because it was proposed by a Democratic Congress, had it been a republican congress it would be page one news for a long time.

Yep the people in the U.S. are sheep, most at least, free thinking on its way out the door.
They want to Blame Bush for everything, welcome the Clintons back in office, ignore the reality that there are people in the world that want to **** them, drive their new SUV, shove garbage down their pie holes all day and get obese, and go through life with their bad, self centered,attitudes

Yep much of it is the the news media, promoting liberalism disgiused in many different forms and changing perspectives of what is real.

And for those who see merit in why we fought in WWII and Not in the war against Terrorists , is the main goal of the 2 not the same?. Self preservation?

"Cold hearted orb that rules the night, removes the colours from our sight.
Red is grey, and yellow white, but we decide which is right.
And which is an illusion... " Moody Blues

 

[meesterperfect]

Here it's talked about a lot each and every time one of our soldiers are ******. But we're not a nation used to being at war either. I do think that we have been fortunate at not lost as many soldiers as we might have feared to.

I can say that many here feel like our government has lied to us, because they focused a lot on their "proof" of weapons of mass destruction. It was mentioned over and over again when our government was talking about the need to join the coalition. So I think that many, here at least, have a valid reson to feel lied to in some areas.

As for civilians being ******, I don't think that anyone here really expected that it wouldn't happen. I think that many are just shocked that the civilian death toll is so high and constantly rising.

Hey Aeg,
Your are right,many do think they were mislead about the WMD's. Thanks to the News Media and many prominent politicians.I realize you were only stating reasons about why the people feel as they do about Iraq, I just want to clarify as to possibly why.

Remember in Dec of 1998 President Clinton addressed the nation and proposed invading Iraq, he said " He has them, He's used them before, and mark my words he will use them again". I think he was correct 100%, just ashame he was all talk.
Its a fact he had them and already ****** 100's of thousands with them.Theres video proof of the thousands of dead bodies. Why we we think he got rid of them before we invaded this time?
And why would anyone think that if he used them against his own people that he wouldn't used them on the U.S. or another country?

As far as the dead civillians, and more everyday. Keep in mind that the people doing this *******, mostly suicide bombers blowing up public places, are the people we are fighting.
The coalition ****** are not over there blasting away at Iraq and ******* innocents as the news media may lead us to believe.Or terrorizing innocent Iraqis in the dead of night as John Kerry has stated,The reality is they go to extreme measures to avoid hurting civillians, even when it puts thier own lives in greater danger.

Take care.

 

[Aegis]

Hey Aeg,
Your are right,many do think they were mislead about the WMD's. Thanks to the News Media and many prominent politicians.

But remember in Dec of 1998 President Clinton addressed the nation and proposed invading Iraq, he said " He has them, He's used them before, and mark my words he will use them again". I think he was correct 100%, just ashame he was all talk.
Its a fact he had them and already ****** 100's of thousands with them.Theres video proof of the thousands of dead bodies. Why we we think he got rid of them before we invaded this time?
And why would anyone think that if he used them against his own people that he wouldn't used them on the U.S. or another country?

I think that what many here focus on, is that our government presented their "proof" as if it was something they knew for a fact was still true, and not something our government just assumed was true, since they didn't really know whether Saddam still had those weapons. But even back then, a lot of people here didn't believe that there were still the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, as our government claimed.

As far as the dead civillians, and more everyday. Keep in mind that the people doing this *******, mostly suicide bombers blowing up public places, are the people we are fighting.
The coalition ****** are not over there blasting away at Iraq and ******* innocents as the news media may lead us to believe.Or terrorizing innocent Iraqis in the dead of night as John Kerry has stated,The reality is they go to extreme measures to avoid hurting civillians, even when it puts thier own lives in greater danger.
Take care.

Yes, and I don't think that many believe that it's anything but terrorists ******* the civilians. What I just think is shocking to many, is to see how the situation is in Iraq today. I think that many would like to believe that our soldiers do a difference, and that what we're doing is helping Iraq. Few people will say that Saddam was a good person, but I think that there are people here who believe that this war has been handled in the wrong way, and that the Iraqi people is paying the price.

I just think that it's awfully easy for me or many others, to sit at home and say that Iraq is better off without Saddam. I don't have to live in the chaos that the Iraqi people live in, and I didn't have to live there when Saddam was in power.

 

[meesterperfect]

I understand what your saying. I do believe he had them. For many reasons. But we don't want to go round and round on this topic again I'm sure.
Also I agree it easy easy to sit at home and decide if Iraq is better with or without saddam. I dont know either.
But I'm looking at it a broader sense and I feel the world is better off without him.
I dont want to steer the thread in a different direction than the original topic so I'll just fade away now........

 

[Neromak]

If people applied half the energy and resources into improving things as they did to making war, we'd be a lot better off.

to the OP: no, there is no such thing as a perfect war, people die. That's the whole idea behind war. **** the other guy.

 

[Legzman]

what in the fuck is a "perfect war"???

 

[D-rock]

Has there ever been a war that...
>Didn't have casualties and death?
>Didn't see innocent people getting ******?
>Leaders had all the facts about every aspect of the war before initiating conflict?
>Leaders had a flawless schedule for when conflict would begin and end?
>Citizens were 100% percent behind the war effort?
>Leaders always had the full backing of the rest of the government?
>Had a perfect plan for after the war?


The way I see it...
>War will always have death.
>War will always have innocent death.
>Governments will never know everything about their enemies.
>Wars don't follow schedules.
>There will always be people for peace, and against war.
>Politicians will never agree totally on anything.
>No one knows the future, and what new situations will arise after conflict ends.

There has never been a perfect war if the elimination of those things are what would define a "perfect war". As the saying goes no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. There are just too many variables that can't be taken into account in battle. The greatest generals in the history of mankind all had unforeseen problems at one time or another.

I think part of the problem people have with this conflict more than a lot of the others we have had is the way that almost every aspect of it has been screwed up past the point of any acceptability even taken into account the above things you listed. It's one thing to have a sound battle plan, and a good plan for the aftermath only to have some unforeseen problems later. It's another to have almost every aspect of what your country does be subject from anywhere between shear stupidity to complete incompetence by the administration in charge. It's even worse when you learn the whole foundation for the war to be false because of people lying, being incompetent, or selectively ignoring evidence that didn't support their position or a combination of those. It's even worse when they ignored the advice of long time military officials that probably knew what they were talking about a lot more than them. It's even worse when the people that screwed up refuse to accept the obviousness of their faulty plans and take true accountability for them. At some point it's not about the fact things went wrong as much as the fact we colossally screwed up which makes every death we now face all the more painful because of it.

 

[ckjedi66]

"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his" - General George S. Patton

Just had to throw that in, one of my favorite quotes on war.

 

[Legzman]

"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his" - General George S. Patton

Just had to throw that in, one of my favorite quotes on war.

:1orglaugh very nice!

 

[RogueWolf]

There has never been a perfect war if the elimination of those things are what would define a "perfect war". As the saying goes no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. There are just too many variables that can't be taken into account in battle. The greatest generals in the history of mankind all had unforeseen problems at one time or another.

I think part of the problem people have with this conflict more than a lot of the others we have had is the way that almost every aspect of it has been screwed up past the point of any acceptability even taken into account the above things you listed. It's one thing to have a sound battle plan, and a good plan for the aftermath only to have some unforeseen problems later. It's another to have almost every aspect of what your country does be subject from anywhere between shear stupidity to complete incompetence by the administration in charge. It's even worse when you learn the whole foundation for the war to be false because of people lying, being incompetent, or selectively ignoring evidence that didn't support their position or a combination of those. It's even worse when they ignored the advice of long time military officials that probably knew what they were talking about a lot more than them. It's even worse when the people that screwed up refuse to accept the obviousness of their faulty plans and take true accountability for them. At some point it's not about the fact things went wrong as much as the fact we colossally screwed up which makes every death we now face all the more painful because of it.

Thank you D-rock. No offense to anyone else who posted here, but your's is the first response that really understood and addressed the issues I raised.