Outlawing guns in the US ...

Should the US Federal Constitution's Second Amendment be overturned?

  • Yes, I want to bypass Constitutional process and directly overturn with simple majority

    Votes: 29 10.2%
  • Yes, I want it overturned with Constitutional process and super-majority

    Votes: 30 10.6%
  • Indifferent, but it should only be overturned with Constitutional process and super-majority

    Votes: 8 2.8%
  • No, but I'd accept it if overturned with Constitutional process and super-majority

    Votes: 21 7.4%
  • No, and I don't think any Amendments of the [i]Bill of Rights[/i] should ever be repealed

    Votes: 186 65.5%
  • Other (please explain)

    Votes: 10 3.5%

  • Total voters
    284
First off, im not American so my views on firearms differs from the American perspective.

That said (and it was important to say that) - the irresponsability of few shouldn't be used as an argument supporting firearms control. Playing the think-of-the-children card is not a valid argument in my opinion.

Those incidents will happend - regardless of the more or less control there is on firearms.

There is some valid arguments regarding firearms control but this is definatly not one.

:2 cents:
 
First off, im not American so my views on firearms differs from the American perspective.
I still rather enjoy your thought-provoking views. You're more aware of American civics than a lot of Americans.
That said (and it was important to say that) - the irresponsability of few shouldn't be used as an argument supporting firearms control. Playing the think-of-the-children card is not a valid argument in my opinion.
That's always the problem. People sell the "worst" -- the "bleeding heart" (although not necessarily Liberal, Conservatives have their "bleeding heart" causes as well) -- and ignore many realities.

E.g., they talk about how few are used self-defense and how many are used in assault, yet they ignore so many other statistics. Like the actual owners who never use yet, let alone the actual "deterrence." Many, many, many criminals will not enter a house were they know there is a gun owner, period.

Those incidents will happend - regardless of the more or less control there is on firearms.
The question is of percentage. The problem is that people twist the statistics to ignore the total number of owners, and compare them to other things.

Like the NRA, I was for portions of the Brady Bill, but I was against many others. The Brady Foundation has some great statistics, and then some rather awful ones -- like statistics that would be completely unaffected by bans.

E.g., the overwhelming majority of assault weapons used in the US were brought in illegal to the US by the drug trade -- over an order of magnitude greater -- nearly tens of thousands, whereas every other illegal usage is in the hundreds, and legal ownership is actually only in the tens!

It's easy to think of organized crime and gun control. The problem is that this is not the 1930s and prohibition any more. Those laws are useless against criminals, because most criminals are no longer domestic. There are so many gun designs that circumvent laws before they are even written.

There is some valid arguments regarding firearms control but this is definatly not one.
The NRA and I believe in full background checks, were very much for a full, unified database of criminals -- something that only finally started taking place in 1998+ (well after the Brady Bill, and only because of terrorism). This is what pisses me off the most, passing gun control laws and not enforcing them, in the hope to showing they are "not effective."

In Florida, for eight (8) years, Lawton Chiles and the Democrat legislation was notoriously known for passing such laws on everything from affirmative action to guns and not enforcing them. One of the biggest complaints against Jeb Bush was how "unfair" the affirmative action and gun control was under his administration early on, and people had to repeatedly point out that the state (namely departments he could now control, such as state attorney general) was only enforcing existing laws. Luckily the state moved to pass some off-setting laws.

I personally think Florida has the best gun control and gun rights in the nation -- 10-20-LIFE and, now, the right to self-defense -- one of the best balances I've seen. Not perfect, but only about a dozen "questionable cases" happen a year -- not bad for a state with tens of millions of people (the 4th largest by a wide margin now). The state also found that most of the affirmative action non-sense was being circumvented anyway -- e.g., Minority Business Enterprises (MBE) just contracting out non-minority companies (including both myself and my father's business) who underbid them in the first place, costing the state more money (and laws to prevent that). And they put those to end.
 
Statistically, it is a fact that countries with more guns per private citizen have more violent deaths per capita (regardless of GDP per capita).
And if U.S. private citizens suddenly were banned from owning guns then eventually America would be a safer place (though initially it could be less safe).
2'nd Amendment, personal safety, protection from government are all reasons that do not stand up to scrutiny or statistics as logical reasons for armed private citizens.

The bottom line is freedom. America, more then any other country, is about freedom. And it's citizens have been granted, by law, the right to own firearms. And this right makes people feel freer, safer and (sometimes) more powerful; even if statistically less safe.
So it's not logical, it's emotional.
And you can't argue with an emotion. So you shouldn't try.

Meaning, imo, that legal gun owners should not have that right taken from them. They should give it up voluntarily or not at all; UNLESS a 75+% national majority tells them to.
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
^ You don't know the law. :tongue:

Go back and read the quotes.

Also, the only way to get the guns from Americans is to have a long bloody war. Which they will lose. :ak47:

:hatsoff:
 
(...) And owning these firearms makes people feel freer (...) So it's not logical, it's emotional. (...) And you can't argue with an emotion

Can't say it better. :thumbsup:

That's what makes it so hard, for foreigners, to understand how much important the 2nd Amendment is for the majority of Americans.
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
Statistically, it is a fact that countries with more guns per private citizen have more violent deaths per capita (regardless of GDP per capita).

Keyword in that statement; VIOLENT

Countries with more guns per capita have more violent deaths, but not overall deaths.

A kill is a kill.

:2 cents:
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
Also, it's not an "emotion" it's a law and our unalienable, non-negotiable right to own weapons of any kind.

"They that can give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself! They are the American people's Liberty Teeth and keystone under Independence. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that's good!"
President George Washington, in a speech to Congress. 7 January, 1790
 
^ You don't know the law. :tongue:

Go back and read the quotes.

Also, the only way to get the guns from Americans is to have a long bloody war. Which they will lose. :ak47:

:hatsoff:

Who will lose, the government or the American people? The average gun owning citizen possesses world war two level firepower, they are outgunned and out trained, but they do have greater numbers than the force of the military. I'd say at best that they could hope for would be to defend the advances of the government, but not to gain any ground and only after having given up much of it at an overwhelming non-combatant casualty rate.
 
Keyword in that statement; VIOLENT

Countries with more guns per capita have more violent deaths, but not overall deaths.

A kill is a kill.

:2 cents:

how do you have a nonviolent murder? would that be to jump out of the bushes and yell Boo! inducing a heart attack?

or did you just mean death by natural causes like AIDS? and what does that have to do with guns?
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
how do you have a nonviolent murder? would that be to jump out of the bushes and yell Boo! inducing a heart attack?

or did you just mean death by natural causes like AIDS? and what does that have to do with guns?

Hypothetical situation...

If I slip a pill into your water that causes you to instantly fall into a comatose state and die, without you being able to feel a thing...is that a violent death? :dunno: Seems pretty calm and serene to me.

But, like I said before..."a kill is a kill". When people use the term "violent death" when talking about guns, it's only to make guns seem like they are sooooo much worse than any other weapon.
 
yeah, but poison is kind of hard to come by especially the kind that you describe (most of them will take a long time to kill you and it will be painful and traumatic to the person), and it generally requires that you have a trusting relationship with the person that you want to kill. plus of course the premeditation. most people just get pissed off, grab whatever object is at hand, a gun, knife, dildo and then attack with it.
 

ChefChiTown

The secret ingredient? MY BALLS
yeah, but poison is kind of hard to come by especially the kind that you describe (most of them will take a long time to kill you and it will be painful and traumatic to the person), and it generally requires that you have a trusting relationship with the person that you want to kill. plus of course the premeditation. most people just get pissed off, grab whatever object is at hand, a gun, knife, dildo and then attack with it.

That's why I said "hypothetical situation".

By the way, I prefer dildos. It just makes beating someone to death sooooo much more hilarious. :1orglaugh
 
Gun control, the arguments have changed little to today ...

"They that can give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety"
Benjamin Franklin

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself! They are the American people's Liberty Teeth and keystone under Independence. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that's good!"
President George Washington, in a speech to Congress. 7 January, 1790
The problem is that people think gun control was never debated in the original Continental through early US Congresses. It was! The arguments then are no different than today.

The view that suggests otherwise is utter ignorance of American civics and history. It goes along with, "guns were wrong in the Constitution because slavery was wrong in the Constitution." Slavery was never guaranteed by the US Constitution, and that's a huge debate that did not end with Lincoln's proclamation in 1963 either!

Slavery was only supported by existing, Common Law, which was utterly destroyed by the (later) Thirteenth Amendment. It was never guaranteed and -- repeatedly -- considered very conflicting to the principles of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Hell, Thomas Jefferson wrestled with that repeatedly, not just in civics, but in his own life, yet was often hypocritical himself.
 
I think you need to go back and relearn your civics Prof.

America was a poor, weak, unpopulated rag-tag "nation" of a small group of elitely educated squires and a mass citizenry of farmers. The musket and flintlock pistol fired a single shot and took FOREVER AND A DAY to reload.

The Constitution was setup so a single man could not buy his way into caesership and takeover the country by basically hiring or buying his own private foreign military and bringing them over.

The framers of the Constitution did not envision the population numbers nor the technology of today. They believed it was normal for men to wear makeup and powdered wigs.

Today, America is being "held back" and "smothered" into irrelevancy by Traditionalists. Americans need to wake up and grow up.
 
"slavery, like sodomy, is so wrong but it feels so right."
-Thomas Jefferson
 
I think you need to go back and relearn your civics Prof. America was a poor, weak, unpopulated rag-tag "nation" of a small group of elitely educated squires and a mass citizenry of farmers. The musket and flintlock pistol fired a single shot and took FOREVER AND A DAY to reload.
And the arguments change because ... ???

Listen, I'm not debating automatics v. manual here. That's a different debate. To say guns should be outlawed because of technological changes still ignores the fact that there are still revolvers and small magazines -- including limitations in enforced laws. I'm not against those. What I'm against is laws that go against the 2nd Amendment.

The Constitution was setup so a single man could not buy his way into caesership and takeover the country by basically hiring or buying his own private foreign military and bringing them over.
Among other things. That changes how today ... ???
The framers of the Constitution
The framers of the Constitution did NOT write the 2nd Amendment! You are the one failing civics here!

The states, typically the average people as they assembled in communities and then sent represented to the states, decided to send over 100 articles to the Continental Congress, repeatedly stated they wanted the right to assembly, press, arms, speedy trials and so forth! The people!

did not envision the population numbers
There are still a great percentage of Americans (nearly 20%) that live in rural areas.

nor the technology of today.
Then you obviously have not read Franklin! Franklin was hardly as "southerner" either, but saw the individual rights and freedoms that most of the north did not, and the south cherished.

They believed it was normal for men to wear makeup and powdered wigs.
Bullshit. This is a total bullshit argument. And yet, they still did not write the 2nd Amendment!

If cities and states want outlaw public, threatening displays of firearms, then they can. In fact, in Florida, if you pull a firearm in public, you get 10 years -- unless it was pulled in self-defense (and that likely means you actually fired it too).

That's not the debate. People like yourself try to use those arguments, not realizing there are laws that exist that prevent such use. Such irresponsibility is not done by the overwhelming majority of lawfully abiding citizens, so by outlawing ownership, you don't affect those abuses by criminals.

That's the folly! It's the same argument the founders had, over and over, and realized, they were demonizing the responsible citizens. From the right to property and capitalism to the right to assemble and bear arms.

IToday, America is being "held back" and "smothered" into irrelevancy by Traditionalists. Americans need to wake up and grow up.
I'll don a white wig and use starch if you want further justification for your views.

But it still doesn't excuse the fact that people like yourself do not remotely know where the Bill of Rights came from. It was a forced on those same framers (who wear those wigs, starch and all), by the people that they would not accept what the framers sent.

Today American is being "held back" and "smothered" by people who are making arguments that are not remotely true. They disregard things because they want to assume, quite in error (a by-product of ignorance), what the arguments, players and people were back some 200-300 years.

The "wig guys" did not write the Bill of Rights. Read up on where it came from. Over 100 articles were submitted.
 
Also, it's not an "emotion" it's a law and our unalienable, non-negotiable right to own weapons of any kind.

As i understood what was meant by emotion was not depreciatory or derogatory. And not questionning the law. There is reasons and emotional bound to support the law, the 2nd Amendment.

Actually, for a foreigner, understanding that emotional bound helps a lot to see how important is the 2nd Amendment for almost all American citizens. It's something unique to the USA, totally alien for most foreigners (like i am).

Firearms = Freedom. That's an equation which started to make sense when i understood the emotional bound you (and many many American Citizens) have. :)

:2 cents:
 
Let's make this easy for everyone paying attention. I am asking you, Prof, PUBLICALLY on a porn board to go fix the errors on the following wiki link. And by errors I mean to properly remove James Madison and Thomas Jefferson from having been assigned all credit for the Bill of Rights and for why the Bill of Rights now are known as PART OF THE CONSTITUTION! And in it's place, I would like you to do a simple copy/paste job of all the text in your response plus noting the "100 documents from the people" that you broadly reference. Also include the information about Florida, if you like. You seem to like it since you reference Florida everywhere in most of your discussions no matter the topic. I did not learn my civics from wikipedia, but this page pretty much sums up the events as I learned them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

I believe that corporations and lobbyists are the real threats to America, NOT foreign invaders, pirates or terrorists.

Ben Franklin did not give a shit about the South because he had his eyes ON BIGGER THINGS!!! Namely, French chicks and GLOBAL ECONOMICS AND DIPLOMACY!

The values of The South were defeated in 1865 yet America hasn't moved on from that. The South's incessant need to exert white Christian supremacy is also part of the Traditionalist problem I eluded to.
 
The "context" of the Amendments ...

Actually, for a foreigner, understanding that emotional bound helps a lot to see how important is the 2nd Amendment for almost all American citizens. It's something unique to the USA, totally alien for most foreigners (like i am). :)
The lowest numbered US Amendments have a lot to do with the policies of the British government the last few decades of the American colonies.

Too many Americans have never read them. The ones that do are utterly confused by several. And many overlook what was actually most important in each.

First Amendment:

A major issue with the UK that went into the First Amendment was Freedom of Assembly, not so much Press or even Speech. Even Freedom of Religion was more of a "bid deal," more of a protection of the states from the federal (and influence of one another, using the federal against each other), and the right of any individual citizen to practice what they wanted, regardless of the state. Although many of the submissions and states realized they were equally as important, and a core balance. That would prove crucial later with the [Jeffersonian] Republicans against some of the Federalist Party's policies.

It was also long debated whether the 1st Amendment is more about individual or state rights, but it's actually individual rights that are also state rights (against the federal), as long as the state rights do not override the individual (the common, complementary Supreme Law ruling). The problem with that later part has always been then, who decides if the individual's rights are being violated by the state? Especially given the Tenth Amendment. That has been a debate that holds true to today -- especially during both the 1860s and the again in the 1960s.

Second Amendment:

Is it about the militia or not? One of the greatest debates ever seen was just his past year on this fact. As much as people want to demonize W., or the justices he appointed, people forget that both Democrat and Republican appointed judges agreed with one another on some things, disagreeing with their alleged own on the same. The reality is that not only did both individual and state submissions guarantee the right of the individual, but several forms of the 2nd Amendment included different grammar.

In the end, the worry was that the federal government could say, "hey, look, we said the people could bear arms individually, not states against the federal government in sedition." That's why the militia comment was included, which came up in a very historical sense (and has been largely ignored by the left). Hell, even Obama stated that individuals have the right to bear arms, and the consensus is that DC went too far by banning ownership.

Key Supreme Law Here: The US Supreme Court has repeatedly stated that you have a right to do with and in your home what you wish. Defense of your home is considered very legal, and goes to the very right of "property" of Locke.

Third Amendment:

Americans look at this and get a dumb stare, or worse yet, use it as an excuse that "look, this is over 200 years old and none of it is applicable." What if I told you the 3rd Amendment is at the heart of some of the debates on the War on Terror (among others)? It's an interesting debate indeed.

BTW, this has still been a major issue in Europe over the years, where most every national does not have this protection like the US does (let alone not in a time of war, like the US).

Fourth Amendment

Another British-driven biggy. I do not even have enough room to begin discussing this. The debates today are still like they were over 200 years ago, even 300 years ago before the US was even considering becoming a nation. The War on Drugs has destroyed this far more than the War on Terror.

Fifth-Sixth Amendments

These two go together much like the 1st and 2nd, a duality that most people see as very much crucial. The War on Drugs actually "tore down" many aspects of these Amendments far more than the War on Terror. But there's still a lot of core, individual rights that are heavily protected out of these very British-driven Amendments -- things many citizens of the UK wish they themselves had and are not offered in the Magna Carta nor the British Bill of Rights either.

The right not to incriminate oneself is regularly used today. Unfortunately, it is not applicable to those under Congressional inquiry. Some good people spent 20+ years in jail (well into the '70s) because of McCarthyism, and some every decade since because of politics by both Democrats and Republicans. One of the biggest complaints I have repeatedly made of both the Whitewater scandal (during the Clinton administration) and the Plame Leak (during the W. administration) is that McCarthyism had returned. Argumentative people in this country (and on this board, among others) continually, directly and irresponsibility support McCarthyism type tactics -- the direct denial of people's rights under the 5th Amendment which Congress can deny citizens -- because they think something is of "greater good," and I'm sorry, I refuse to agree.

I would never, ever want to testify before Congress because of that reason. Both Whitewater (and subsequent inquires) as well as the Plame non-sense were great examples of McCarthyism. During the Clinton series of investigations, the most they ever got was the whole Monica incident, and then only lying to a grand jury about something that was not a crime. So then during the W. administration, even several left-leaning news organizations openly questioned how the Plame investigations were being handled as a result (especially since it was never a crime either, much less they never prosecuted the person who actually leaked the name, which was not Scotter Libby), as the saw their own colleagues thrown in jail (most who had nothing to do with it).

Throwing people in jail for not offering hearsay that people want (which would only be perjury later anyway), yeah, great.

Seventh-Eight Amendments

This lesser visited amendments are actually my favorite, and another great duality. Based on many things of both British and even Colonial abuses, the US finally put an ended to the eye-for-an-eye non-sense, for good. You could no longer be jailed for merely screwing up unintentionally (such as financial), indentured servitude was basically outlawed (although people played games with that), and many other things that are still very much argued today. Unfortunately select people also abuse these rights (like everything else).

Ninth Amendment

This one drastically reduced the fears (argumentative stances in some cases?) that Alexander Hamilton and other Federalists argued, especially the individual versus the state (the state v. federal is the 10th).

One example I still point out where the Ninth Amendment has partially failed has been a driver's license. They call it a "privilege," not a "right." Actually, it is a "right," and any state government would have difficulty enforcing it on private property. But because the states own the roads, that makes it a little more difficult to argue. And then one might try to argue it's really a "state right," but then again, that's why we have the 10th Amendment. The 9th, like 1-8, are clearly individual (and state rights can only be complementary).

Tenth Amendment

The US states stood behind this for years -- especially the 1860s and then again in the 1960s -- enough that to most African-Americans, the term "state's rights" is a racist term, sadly enough. As I always point out, "state's rights" is essential. The problem is that when a US state uses its rights to abuse the rights of others, then the US federal has to come in, remove those rights, and we all lose as a result! "Civil Rights" were the Supreme Law granted that allowed the US federal government to intervene -- basically when individual rights are being violated (such as those of the Constitution or any Common Laws thereof that is considered Supreme Law).

E.g., during the '60s, the US Federal government couldn't prosecute racists for murder or other laws (rights of the state), only Civil Rights violations.

To this day, Federal Supreme Law tries to override the 10th Amendment. Too many people assume the US Federal government can do that on-a-whim, and it scares me shitless that they do think that! God help us.
 

Facetious

Moderated
Statistically, it is a fact that countries with more guns per private citizen have more violent deaths per capita (regardless of GDP per capita).
Sure,
have it your way
, I'm not budging !
The same argument could be applied to the usage of motor vehicles. Would you surrender the convenience of your lovable wreck (car) and walk the miles in the rain simply to be a little safer ?
I prefer to sacrifice a little safety for a bunch of convenience.




What a man purse of a Western society we've become.
Lordy ! :rolleyes: How in the world did we get here ?
 
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