Obama on Capitalism

[PlumpRump]

OK, I'll bite one more time.

I have been called names directly on this forum more times than I can count. When I resort to it, it is to the group and I'm calling it like I see it. Take another look at the Texas GOP platform and tell me I'm wrong.

I'm a poker dealer/pit dealer/casino employee, living in the Capitalism.....Capitol (sorry) of the Known Universe. So let's dispense with the "Mayhem Hates Capitalism" schtick. It just ain't working.

Wait, so one's political ideology is dependent upon where one lives? That's like saying "He lives in Darfur, therefore he must love state-led genocide." Or like me saying "I live in California, how could I possibly disagree with liberalism?" Geographic location is (for the most part) irrelevant to ideology and is far from a determinant of your values and/or beliefs. Your distaste for capitalism, in its true, unmolested form, is easily apparent. You say you don't dislike capitalism out of one side of your mouth, while defending the governmental erosion of it out the other. "I'm a casino employee, how could I hate capitalism" is not a valid rebuttal to all of the anti-capitalistic statements you have made in countless threads over the last year or more. Its just not. And I think its a disservice to any discussion when name calling substitutes for logic (on either side of any issue), but I am pretty certain I'm not included in that group, so if we are to have a discussion about the merits of ideology/policy/etc... as I'm sure we will continue to do, I would expect the same level of spirited discord I have extended you in the way of responding with discussion-based opinions, and not the derailing, emotion-laden name calling that is so often a result of disagreement.

We run into another situation, with this particular speech, where you hear what you want to hear; but most of all, you hear who you want to hear. This is another case where, if Romney, Dubya or Reagan had given these same exact remarks, you'd defend them to the death. And if the same sentiments were expressed toward the military budget, Homeland Security or whatever Republican program that is floating your particular boat, you would fall all over yourself hailing the speaker as the Messiah.

First of all neither Romney, W. nor Reagan would ever make "these same exact remarks," to be sure. And if they did, you can be sure that I would feel the same compulsion to disagree with them, for the same reasons I disagree with Obama and Elizabeth Warren for making them. Further, I'm not nearly as partisan as you would like to believe. I'm a fiscal and social conservative, not a Republican. I used to be a Republican until all of the fiscal and social conservatives were purged from prominence in the party. These days, one would be hard pressed to find an "actual" conservative anywhere in government, as RINOs have taken a stranglehold on the party for at least two decades, and to me, that's a shame. As far as the military budget and Homeland Security go, give me an example of where I simply toe the party line without having a clear, individual opinion that reflects the decision as just based on my conservative ideologies and I will accede that you are correct. Until then, your claims that I simply support a politician based on his or her party are baseless.

Why is it that Conservatives can't disagree with someone without having one foot pointed at the door when the debate is just getting interesting? You guys are too eager to bail, and I think it's because you can't take the complexity of the world around you. It's much easier to spread a new coat of paint rather than fix the foundation.

Its not bailing. The discussion has plateaued, and is resolved as nothing more than an understanding that we disagree on this, as we do on many other things recently. I'm quite obviously not going to change your mind, and you're certainly not going to change mine. So, to continue to bicker past the conclusion of the point-making phase of any discussion, simply to extend the discussion for discussion's sake, is pointless.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Not uniquely left, no, but the cries of "xenophobe," "racist," "sexist," "brainwashed," "moron," etc... are far more ubiquitous on that side of the spectrum when a disagreement of policy, or otherwise, is concerned.

As opposed to conservatives with "socialist", "marxist", "muslim", "un-American", "communist", "foreign", 'European", I can go on and on. The latest news story is that Michele Bachmann thinks Hilary Clinton's aide Huma Abedin is a Muslim Brotherhood operative and she is plotting to "destroy Western civilization from within". Also Rep. Alan West believes that there are "about 78 to 81 members of the Democratic Party that are members of the Communist Party.” So apparently if you disagree with conservatives you're not even an American, you're a foreigner who's hell bent on destroying America. Do people seriously believe this stuff? talk about being bat shit crazy

 

[Straight Shooter]

People with money create jobs. The federal government stops people from creating jobs.

But Will, how do they(businesses) get money? does it just appear out of thin air?

 

[PlumpRump]

As opposed to conservatives with "socialist", "marxist", "muslim", "un-American", "communist", "foreign", 'European", I can go on and on. The latest news story is that Michele Bachmann thinks Hilary Clinton's aide Huma Abedin is a Muslim Brotherhood operative and she is plotting to "destroy Western civilization from within". Also Rep. Alan West believes that there are "about 78 to 81 members of the Democratic Party that are members of the Communist Party.” So apparently if you disagree with conservatives you're not even an American, you're a foreigner who's hell bent on destroying America. Do people seriously believe this stuff? talk about being bat shit crazy

To call someone a socialist, Marxist, Muslim, communist, foreigner, or European is not name calling, its labeling people as what they are, based on their political beliefs, religion of choice or country of origin. They're definable. Last I checked, "moron," "hick," "redneck," and the like are not political parties, ideologies, religions, or countries of origin. And where do you get the idea that if "you disagree with conservatives you're not even an American?" To disagree with conservatives is, these days, one of the most "American" things to do if you turn on CNN or MSNBC. Silly argument.

And just for reference, if someone is European, or from a foreign nation and in the United States (and not a legal resident or citizen)... to call them a European or a foreigner is to correctly describe them, by definition. Not name calling.

 

[Straight Shooter]

And just for reference, if someone is European, or from a foreign nation and in the United States (and not a legal resident or citizen)... to call them a European or a foreigner is to correctly describe them, by definition. Not name calling.

Come on bro, when Romney or someone calls Obama "European" they mean it as a negative connotation.

 

[Mayhem]

To call someone a socialist, Marxist, Muslim, communist, foreigner, or European is not name calling, its labeling people as what they are, based on their political beliefs, religion of choice or country of origin.

Do you actually believe the shit you're slinging? "socialist, Marxist, Muslim, communist," can be and are all used as perjoratives and you know it. It happens everyday. Obama being called a socialist is not a descriptive by the people using it, nor is it meant to be. And I have recently been accused of being a communist and a hack. The name calling thing is by no means a one-way street.

 

[meesterperfect]

Nice posts PR.
All Obama was doing that day was trying to agitate those people, get them pissed off at people who own businesses.
telling them that they(the ones who had the determination to work hard and achieve something) couldn't have done it without them, and without the GOV either.
he was just trying to get them riled up, and create more resentment towards people who have more "stuff" then them.
but it also showed just what he really thinks, that the people work for the GOV, when in reality this country was founded and became so great based on the complete opposite ideology.

and to the ones here who go against me no matter what: You think I am a "defend republicans no matter what" kind of person.
I ain't. I blame the whole government and its politicians for screwing up what once was such a great country.......I just blame the democrats much much more.
I suspected back in 2007 when I first read about Obama and his past and read parts of his book that his goal was to do as much damage as possible for as long as we let him......and he's pretty much verified that to me over the past few years.
and when he says more taxes for the rich, that's just a lie. what he really means is more taxes for anybody who earns money.
I'd choose a dead dog over this guy at this point.

 

[Straight Shooter]

Nice posts PR.
All Obama was doing that day was trying to agitate those people, get them pissed off at people who own businesses.
telling them that they(the ones who had the determination to work hard and achieve something) couldn't have done it without them, and without the GOV either.
he was just trying to get them riled up, and create more resentment towards people who have more "stuff" then them.
but it also showed just what he really thinks, that the people work for the GOV, when in reality this country was founded and became so great based on the complete opposite ideology.

and to the ones here who go against me no matter what: You think I am a "defend republicans no matter what" kind of person.
I ain't. I blame the whole government and its politicians for screwing up what once was such a great country.......I just blame the democrats much much more.
I suspected back in 2007 when I first read about Obama and his past and read parts of his book that his goal was to do as much damage as possible for as long as we let him......and he's pretty much verified that to me over the past few years.
and when he says more taxes for the rich, that's just a lie. what he really means is more taxes for anybody who earns money.
I'd choose a dead dog over this guy at this point.

Once again, do you have any facts to back that statement up? think maybe you can post the exact quote where he said he wants to "do as much damage as possible for as long as we let him"?

 

[georges]

Do you actually believe the shit you're slinging? "socialist, Marxist, Muslim, communist," can be and are all used as perjoratives and you know it. It happens everyday. Obama being called a socialist is not a descriptive by the people using it, nor is it meant to be. And I have recently been accused of being a communist and a hack. The name calling thing is by no means a one-way street.

No, it isn't name calling, it is just depicting and describing people as who they truely are.

 

[georges]

Once again, do you have any facts to back that statement up? think maybe you can post the exact quote where he said he wants to "do as much damage as possible for as long as we let him"?

Don't pretend that you didn't know, you and several others voted for a divider, you voted for the one who cares more about the black voters, the muslims, the illegals and the ghetto trash crowd rather than the law abiding citizens.

 

[georges]

Businesses aren't job creators, consumers are. If you don’t have more customers, you won’t hire more workers. If you want to reduce unemployment you have to boost demand, not reduce costs, which is what the GOP calls for. The real problem with the economy is demand. Not "uncertainty", high taxes or too many regulations, demand!

So according to you to be a parasite and leech off free health care, social security and not working like most of the ghetto trash do is an example to follow??? What a lovely example shown from the mentality of the left. A reason why Socialism has fucked very European country who implemented it.

 

[E-Ann-Hilden]

He gaffed on the speech, all politicians do it. Romney said it better, so did Elizabeth Warren. It takes a village to raise a child, along with this great nation to build a great business! One person doesnt do it alone, plain and simple. Infrastructure, workers, visionary management, a supply chain, education, banks, government grants, federal and state tax breaks and hard work complete a business!

 

[PlumpRump]

Come on bro, when Romney or someone calls Obama "European" they mean it as a negative connotation.

Romney referring to Obama as a "European socialist," is wholly different than calling someone a moron or a redneck. When the programs that Obama has or intends to implement mirror European socialism, he's going to be called a European socialist. That's not name-calling. Further, if someone calling the president a "European socialist" seems a negative connotation to you, maybe its because you're not a fan of European socialism, and you should be questioning your support of a president who does things in the vein of European socialism.

Do you actually believe the shit you're slinging? "socialist, Marxist, Muslim, communist," can be and are all used as perjoratives and you know it. It happens everyday. Obama being called a socialist is not a descriptive by the people using it, nor is it meant to be. And I have recently been accused of being a communist and a hack. The name calling thing is by no means a one-way street.

I really don't see how people who act like a socialist or a communist can find the labels "socialist" or "communist" pejorative. The left now uses the term "capitalist" as a pejorative and the capitalists don't seem to find it offensive, because its just a true statement, that's what they are. If they do find it offensive, its because they realize the left is trying to deal a death blow to true capitalism, pretty scary stuff.

Anyone who has defended the government takeover of GM, praised the Occupy movement, advocated for redistribution of wealth in any sense, defended an increase in welfare spending and flexibility for work requirements, has lauded the heavy expansion of social programs, cheered the universal healthcare mandate, screamed for higher taxes, or has defended the government when they claim that a business owner "didn't build that," is, in a definable sense, comporting themselves as a socialist/communist/Marxist. If that offends you, if you find that to be pejorative, well, stop advocating things that anti-capitalists advocate, and no one will call you on it anymore.

Either stop hiding the anti-capitalist in you and just accept it, or give us some real examples of why you shouldn't be seen, and rightly labeled as, an anti-capitalist.

 

[Straight Shooter]

So according to you to be a parasite and leech off free health care, social security and not working like most of the ghetto trash do is an example to follow??? What a lovely example shown from the mentality of the left. A reason why Socialism has fucked very European country who implemented it.

What the hell are you talking about? I was talking about how demand is the problem with the economy right now, not taxes or regulations. Where the fuck did you get free healthcare and SS from?

 

[Straight Shooter]

Romney referring to Obama as a "European socialist," is wholly different than calling someone a moron or a redneck. When the programs that Obama has or intends to implement mirror European socialism, he's going to be called a European socialist. That's not name-calling. Further, if someone calling the president a "European socialist" seems a negative connotation to you, maybe its because you're not a fan of European socialism, and you should be questioning your support of a president who does things in the vein of European socialism.

The old "Obama is a socialist" line huh. Like I haven't heard that a million times already. Really, he's a socialist?

1. The Dow Jones Industrial Average has surged 60% since Barack Obama was inaugurated as president three years ago
http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2012/01/23/the-stock-market-loves-president-obama/

2. Corporate profits at all time high under Obama
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/29/corporate-profits-rose-un_n_775814.html

3. There's been a decline of government jobs under Obama
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/06/under-obama-a-record-decline-in-government-jobs/

4. Taxes are at a historic low
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories...-or-not-us-taxes-are-at-historic-lows-300688/

If Obama is a socialist, he's a lousy one

 

[xfire]

Romney referring to Obama as a "European socialist," is wholly different than calling someone a moron or a redneck. When the programs that Obama has or intends to implement mirror European socialism, he's going to be called a European socialist. That's not name-calling. Further, if someone calling the president a "European socialist" seems a negative connotation to you, maybe its because you're not a fan of European socialism, and you should be questioning your support of a president who does things in the vein of European socialism.



I really don't see how people who act like a socialist or a communist can find the labels "socialist" or "communist" pejorative. The left now uses the term "capitalist" as a pejorative and the capitalists don't seem to find it offensive, because its just a true statement, that's what they are. If they do find it offensive, its because they realize the left is trying to deal a death blow to true capitalism, pretty scary stuff.

Anyone who has defended the government takeover of GM, praised the Occupy movement, advocated for redistribution of wealth in any sense, defended an increase in welfare spending and flexibility for work requirements, has lauded the heavy expansion of social programs, cheered the universal healthcare mandate, screamed for higher taxes, or has defended the government when they claim that a business owner "didn't build that," is, in a definable sense, comporting themselves as a socialist/communist/Marxist. If that offends you, if you find that to be pejorative, well, stop advocating things that anti-capitalists advocate, and no one will call you on it anymore.

Either stop hiding the anti-capitalist in you and just accept it, or give us some real examples of why you shouldn't be seen, and rightly labeled as, an anti-capitalist.

Hitler was a "European Socialist". You can crawl out of Frank Luntz' spacious ass.

 

[PlumpRump]

The old "Obama is a socialist" line huh. Like I haven't heard that a million times already. Really, he's a socialist?

1. The Dow Jones Industrial Average has surged 60% since Barack Obama was inaugurated as president three years ago
http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2012/01/23/the-stock-market-loves-president-obama/

2. Corporate profits at all time high under Obama
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/29/corporate-profits-rose-un_n_775814.html

3. There's been a decline of government jobs under Obama
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/06/under-obama-a-record-decline-in-government-jobs/

4. Taxes are at a historic low
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories...-or-not-us-taxes-are-at-historic-lows-300688/

If Obama is a socialist, he's a lousy one

If you actually bothered to read what I wrote, you would notice that I never called Obama a socialist, I simply said that if he is going to do things that resemble European socialism, or hang out with people that are known socialists or communists that he is going to be labeled as such, especially in an election year. ACORN, Bill Ayers, David Boiner, Hilda Solis, Antonio Villaraigosa, ACA, GM, The New Party, and on and on and on... I never called him a socialist, but if he's going to act like one and campaign like one, he's going to be called one.

Hitler was a "European Socialist". You can crawl out of Frank Luntz' spacious ass.

So, social welfare, economic statism and nationally directed industry is not in the mold of European socialism? And now Hitler is somehow a socialist, not a right-wing extremist like the left has been claiming for years? Ok.

 

[xfire]

If you actually bothered to read what I wrote, you would notice that I never called Obama a socialist, I simply said that if he is going to do things that resemble European socialism, or hang out with people that are known socialists or communists that he is going to be labeled as such, especially in an election year. ACORN, Bill Ayers, David Boiner, Hilda Solis, Antonio Villaraigosa, ACA, GM, The New Party, and on and on and on... I never called him a socialist, but if he's going to act like one and campaign like one, he's going to be called one.



So, social welfare, economic statism and nationally directed industry is not in the mold of European socialism? And now Hitler is somehow a socialist, not a right-wing extremist like the left has been claiming for years? Ok.

What did NAZI stand for?

 

[PlumpRump]

What did NAZI stand for?

I'm familiar with National Socialism, thanks. And I agree, Hitler was a socialist. My point was that the left has been calling Hitler a right-winger for the last 60 years, defending that he was not actually on the left side of the spectrum in an effort to link Hitler to the right as a cheap shot to further their political agenda, at times, and you're probably the first person on the left that has called it exactly what it is. If you're implying that I'm likening Obama to Hitler, that's just sad, because its pretty obvious that I'm not. On top of that, you're not even addressing the point I made in the preceding sentence of my last response. Shocker.

 

[Mayhem]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/thu-july-19-2012-e-j--dionne

E.J. Dionne is the author of a book called "Our Divided Political Heart". He was the interview on the Daily Dhow and I think everyone on this thread should see. it. Not because he agrees with me, or makes my sides points. He puts this discussion in a very clear perspective and his views are worth listening too. I'm going to look for this book.