Obama makes History in Hiroshima

[tvstrip]

Obama gave a speech at the Hiroshima memorial while in Japan for the summit.
In doing to he became the first sitting US President ever to visit the site.
Long, but still a great speech. Not an apology by any means, but a hell of a lot more than the 70 years worth of presidents that came before him. :thumbsup: in my book.

 

[knowone]

I think it was great that he did and a long time in coming from a US President. and I had a close relative very high up in The Manhatten Project.

 

[meesterperfect]

I didn't hear the speech so I can't comment on that. The old MP had very little to say about dropping 2 atomic bombs on Japan. After all it was a war.
The older and I hope wiser MP has a different view.
I can't justify dropping 2 atomic bombs on two very densley populated cities filled with civillians, mostly women, children and elderly.
Literally insinerating human beings alive.
So we couldn't beat them in a fair fight so we get them to give up by murdering hundreds of thousands of civillians.
The US propaganda machine tells us we had to because Japan wouldn't surrender but I don't buy that.
We did the same to Germany. Carpet bombing cities with filled with civillians with heavy bombs and incendiary bombs. Burning thousands of people alive, cooked into the asphalt. To me nothing justifies that. Look up the attack of Dresden and Hamburg......preferably on an empty stomach.
But we were the good guys and they were the evil ones.

 

[pool_hustler]

The US propaganda machine tells us we had to because Japan wouldn't surrender but I don't buy that.

You don't buy it even though throughout the course of the war tens of thousands of Japanese committed suicide rather than surrender?
You don't buy it even though Japan still refused to surrender even after the first bomb was dropped?

We did the same to Germany. Carpet bombing cities with filled with civillians. But we were the good guys and they were the evil ones.

And Germany did plenty of the same, to the UK, in Russia, etc.
That's the hideous but given nature of total war between sovereign nations. Even civilians are targetable because they're elemental to the war effort through labor in industry, etc.
And yeah we were the good guys - or in a relative sense at least the better guys - because of what we were fighting to destroy.

 

[tvstrip]

You don't buy it even though throughout the course of the war tens of thousands of Japanese committed suicide rather than surrender?
You don't buy it even though Japan still refused to surrender even after the first bomb was dropped?

And Germany did plenty of the same, to the UK, in Russia, etc.
That's the hideous but given nature of total war between sovereign nations. Even civilians are targetable because they're elemental to the war effort through labor in industry, etc.
And yeah we were the good guys - or in a relative sense at least the better guys - because of what we were fighting to destroy.

I don't buy it either for a couple of reasons.
Japan was out by that time. Literally no navy left. Germany was out. Okinawa was captured. Supply lines cut, subs having a field say with any ship that tried to get in or out.
There was a STRONG surrender movement, even among the military, and from the Emperor himself.
The Japanese would have surrendered if the US just put in a clause that the Emperor would be protected (which they did anyways).

I think the bigger reason they dropped it was to:
a) Do a live test - They didn't consider Japanese "humans", and they actually kept Hiroshima "safe" (they didn't really bomb it until then) to get the maximum impact
b) To keep the Russians in check. Truman actually admitted this himself.

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

Fuck it. We should drop a nuke every ten years on some unsuspecting fuckers just to keep the world on its toes.


Trump 2016

 

[meesterperfect]

You don't buy it even though throughout the course of the war tens of thousands of Japanese committed suicide rather than surrender?
You don't buy it even though Japan still refused to surrender even after the first bomb was dropped?



And Germany did plenty of the same, to the UK, in Russia, etc.
That's the hideous but given nature of total war between sovereign nations. Even civilians are targetable because they're elemental to the war effort through labor in industry, etc.
And yeah we were the good guys - or in a relative sense at least the better guys - because of what we were fighting to destroy.

Pool what you've been taught is history from the side of the winners. This is not always the reality of what and why, especially the history leading up, during and after WWI and II.

Here are a few videos about the truth of both wars if anybody wants to watch.

 

[meesterperfect]

Fuck it. We should drop a nuke every ten years on some unsuspecting fuckers just to keep the world on its toes.

I'm pretty sure you're joking.
I used to be the biggest "kill em all" type.
But for some reason my feelings changed almost 180 degrees, mostly after years of studying US involved wars. All the death and destruction of lives and property.
So the USA has been at war almost non-stop for over a hundred years now. Fighting with many many countrys in this time. (I personally believe the only 2 wars that were justified were The Revolutionary and 1812).
Imagine the world is just a small neighborhhood. Imagine one person in that neighborhood going around and attacking and killing his neighbors for years.
That person would be deemed a violent psychopath and either be killed or locked up for life.

 

[tvstrip]

my feelings changed almost 180 degrees, mostly after years of studying US involved wars. All the death and destruction of lives and property.
So the USA has been at war almost non-stop for over a hundred years now

Funny thing with the US-involved wars is the trend where basically every ally ends up in a subsequent war against them.
(Except England, but then again the US was born fighting them):

WWII? Their biggest allies (other than the UK) were Russia & China. How's that's going?
Iran–Iraq War? The US backed Iraq, and 2 years after the end of that war, the Gulf War started
Afghan War? The one where the US trained Osama to fight the Soviets? I'm sure he repaid the favor...

 

[darthtexan]

Ridiculous speech. Implied apology. What the hell? This type of thing is indicative of his entire presidency and the entire phylosophical belief of leftists - symbolism and imagery and no substance and no concreteness. What the hell was the point of him doing this? What was the alternative to dropping those bombs? Leftists live in this fantasy utopian world. They criticize the way society does things and yet offer no feasible alternative.

 

[sean miguel]

Ridiculous speech. Implied apology. What the hell? This type of thing is indicative of his entire presidency and the entire phylosophical belief of leftists - symbolism and imagery and no substance and no concreteness. What the hell was the point of him doing this? What was the alternative to dropping those bombs? Leftists live in this fantasy utopian world. They criticize the way society does things and yet offer no feasible alternative.

The alternative would've been countless more Japanese and Americans killed or a Soviet invasion (they were coming). The fire and fragmentation bombings of Tokyo killed more Japanese combined than both atomic bombs. But like the assault weapons ban where some weapons were banned based on their appearance, the atomic bombs were scarier. It's more about feelings.

My shriveled, cold heart. Make it bleed again.

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

I'm pretty sure you're joking.
.

A little.

 

[meesterperfect]

Ridiculous speech. Implied apology. What the hell? This type of thing is indicative of his entire presidency and the entire phylosophical belief of leftists - symbolism and imagery and no substance and no concreteness. What the hell was the point of him doing this? What was the alternative to dropping those bombs? Leftists live in this fantasy utopian world. They criticize the way society does things and yet offer no feasible alternative.

I agree our PREZ should not be giving a speech like this on our Memorial Day (Although I admit I didn't listen to it or will I).
I used to feel the same as you about the atomic bombing of Japan. And I'm far from a leftist too, then and now.
I'll tell you the alternative. The USA should not have gone around claiming islands in the Pacific Ocean as our own in the first place.
What connections did they have to those Islands? None at all. And neither did England.

Also know that there was a lot of things going on prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor. Look it up, it wasn't just the crazy Japs out for blood like they taught us.
I personally believe Roosevelt and US intelligence and some top military brass knew Pearl Harbor was coming but said or did nothing to prevent it.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/McCollum/index.html

As far as the bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima- I have no problem with attacking Japans military at any point once the war commenced, they were pretty nasty SOB's and committed a lot of war crimes and atrocities themselves. But I can't condone under almost any circumstance dropping atomic bombs on 2 heavily populated cities which was almost completely inhabited by civillians, mostly children, women and elderly.
Those people were burnt alive. How many was it?
There could have been a cease fire leading to a surrender or God forbid an agreement before that was done.

The US and England did the same to German cities too. In fact theyve carpet bombed many civilian filled cities in many countries and their still doing it.
Civilians according to the rules made primarily by The US and England are supposed to be left alone, not intentionally targeted.
You can love your country. Be patriotic , but understand we have done some sick shit to so many places in the last 100 years and it seems like they have no plans on stopping any time soon.

 

[tvstrip]

The alternative would've been countless more Japanese and Americans killed or a Soviet invasion (they were coming).

They weren't just coming, they were already there. People forget the Ruskies "Pearl Harbored" Japan just days after the bomb by attacking them when they still had a non-aggression pact in effect. In fact that treaty guaranteeing Soviet Neutrality was one of the reasons they didn't surrender immediately after the bomb, and did a 180 when they got invaded. Remember all those Germans that wanted to surrender to the Americans rather than the Soviets? Same thing.

Speaking of "alternatives", if US lives were a concern, they could have just let Stalin do the dirty work, he was more than willing. The problem with that was they didn't want to have another Berlin where they had to split up the country. Japan would have 100% lost Hokkaido and probably most of the north half of the country to them if they didn't surrender when they did. Ironic that the US didn't see China as the real Red threat in Asia as they assumed Kai-shek would destroy Mao.

The fire and fragmentation bombings of Tokyo killed more Japanese combined than both atomic bombs. But like the assault weapons ban where some weapons were banned based on their appearance, the atomic bombs were scarier. It's more about feelings.

So true. Even today we have weapons far more powerful than nukes that are still "street legal" (or "UN/Geneva Legal") because they aren't as "scary" as them.

My shriveled, cold heart. Make it bleed again.

Does this help?

 

[meesterperfect]

Funny thing with the US-involved wars is the trend where basically every ally ends up in a subsequent war against them.
(Except England, but then again the US was born fighting them):

WWII? Their biggest allies (other than the UK) were Russia & China. How's that's going?
Iran–Iraq War? The US backed Iraq, and 2 years after the end of that war, the Gulf War started
Afghan War? The one where the US trained Osama to fight the Soviets? I'm sure he repaid the favor...

Yeah true. Understand Russia and China don't want war now. Not the Governments and especially not the people.
They are both doing great, why would they want war? It's illogical, theyre not idiots.

Iraq? look at it now. Total basket case. People starving to death, and its basically been taken over by the Radicals (Al Qauda, Isis, Isil, Muslim Brotherhood.....they are actually all the same mercenaries. But whose arming and paying them?).
Same thing in Libya and Yemen.
Seems like we gave those countries to the Radical Muslims on purpose to me.
Afghanistan? Tough country to completely take over but I know one thing. The Taliban had destroyed most of the Opium fields when they had control.
I read 90% of the worlds Heroin comes from Afghanistan. Funny how right after we drove the Taliban out that The USA was inundated with heroin. Every other kids a junkie now it seems. Its a serious epidemic in the USA.
If we took the country then who's behind that?

You just mentioned all the Germans who wanted to surrender to The US instead of Russia. The 1st video I posted above tells what the Russians did to millions of German civilians in Poland and Germany after the surrender. The sickest shit imaginable they did to those people.

 

[sean miguel]

Does this help?

I felt a pin prick as my heart started to thaw and thought I heard a bluebird begin to sing, but my heart immediately froze over again and that bluebird was swooped up by an American eagle with large talons.

But thanks for trying. That kitten is adorbs, or as the japanese say, kawaii desu ne!

 

[pool_hustler]

Ridiculous speech. Implied apology. What the hell? This type of thing is indicative of his entire presidency and the entire phylosophical belief of leftists - symbolism and imagery and no substance and no concreteness. What the hell was the point of him doing this? What was the alternative to dropping those bombs? Leftists live in this fantasy utopian world. They criticize the way society does things and yet offer no feasible alternative.

Of course there were feasible alternatives. Even Ike strongly believed as much.
No apology, implied or otherwise. The point was further solidifying an extremely valuable alliance while decrying the horrors of war.

Yeah true. Understand Russia and China don't want war now. Not the Governments and especially not the people.
They are both doing great, why would they want war?

Russia's doing great?
recession: http://www.newsweek.com/imf-predicts-russia-will-remain-recession-until-2017-417415
5 straight quarters of negative GDP: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-growth-annual
Sons of Russian mothers coming home in body bags from a conflict Putin claims they're not involved in.

China:
enormous environmental issues
economic issues http://www.cnbc.com/2016/02/15/chinas-problems-just-gargantuan.html

The 1st video I posted above tells what the Russians did to millions of German civilians in Poland and Germany after the surrender. The sickest shit imaginable they did to those people.

Nothing worse than what Germans did to civilians in occupied Poland, Ukraine and Russia.

 

[pool_hustler]

China

oops. Forgot to mention the Chinese government determining how many children a couple may have.
That plus suffocating censorship measures.

 

[meesterperfect]

Nothing worse than what Germans did to civilians in occupied Poland, Ukraine and Russia.

I understand that you've been trained to believe certain things and think a certain way.I take that into consideration when dealing with you.

The Russians, shortly before the war ended and even after the surrender literally killed every ethnic German man woman and child in Poland and Germany they came across in the most horrendous ways. Gang raping women, crucifying or burning them. They killed children in front of their families, kiiled old people. Killed all Germans they came across. I'm talking civilians.
About 11 million Germans were murdered or starved to death after the war by the Russians and Poles and in Ally prison camps.
Millions and millions more displaced from their homes.

Of course the Russians wouldn't have done this to Germans. After all it's not like they genocided 10's of millions of their own people after the Bolshiveks took over the country.


I know you've had lies forced down your throat all your life so you can't accept the truth. It's too late for you.
BTW here's your 6 million.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dda-0Q_XUhk

 

[pool_hustler]

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