Marriage a worthless institution ?

[Member2019]

Re: [2/2] Partnership, no "blame" only "unhealthy" and moving forward ...

My point was that he typed the following:
'I view her disinterest in sex as abuse...'
And I disagreed with that.

I didn't agree with it either, but my point is, and I hope you recognize this, that the whole "abuse" or "respect" concept doesn't matter.

There is no sexual agreement in a marriage contract.

There are many things not explicitly stated in the contract, including not running out on the family, etc...
In fact, in many states, adultery is rather interesting as well when it comes to a marriage.

But that matters not, what matters is that two people care for each others values and pleasure.
That is clearly not happening here -- it's not about "respect" or "right/wrong" or "required/optional."

It's about two people finding happiness with one another, and it's clear one is not happy.
And yes, that includes having little to no sexual relations, and it's not wrong to desire such.
And it's not wrong to ask of your wife, your partner, to please you, and ask her to go to counseling with you for it.

And if she is 'disinterested' in having sex with him then that does not mean she is not a good wife either because we do not know why she is 'disinterested'.

Then why is she married to him? Why is she still his wife?
Being a wife of his children is more than just a mother, it's still about her being a wife, which he desires.

If she is "disinterested" in sex, then that is "unhealthy" for the marriage when he wants it.
I'm not "blaming" her, I'm just saying it's "unhealthy" and she should not be against trying to change that.

Now yes, we're only getting one side of the story, but a marriage without sexual relations when one partner wants them is "unhealthy."
I'm not being judgmental or anything else, but it's the fact that one partner has an unfulfilled need.
And the need is not unexpected in a typical marriage, not that I'm into "typical," but he's not asking her to have a 3-way.

I am typing what I think. And I do it in the hope that it will help him. It does not read to me that he respects his wife as much as he seems to think he does. And I think he should be made aware of that possibility.

And I wholly agreed that using the word "abuse" is just inappropriate.
My continued point is that he needs to use a less argumentative phrase to get his point across, whether she changes or not.

But you also used other comments that I think do not apply here.
And I took the time to explore all these, in depth, so you should see my point.

You apparently believe he respects her. I am not so sure.

Then you didn't read what I said, and utterly missed my points.
This will be my only response, as all I can say further is, "you're doing it again."
This guy actually cares deeply for his wife and family, and it really takes love and dedication to do what he does.

 

[McRocket]

Re: [2/2] Partnership, no "blame" only "unhealthy" and moving forward ...

But you also used other comments that I think do not apply here.
And I took the time to explore all these, in depth, so you should see my point.

Whether I see your point or not has nothing to do with my point. I stated what I believe for my own reasons. You do not agree with them? Fine.

Then you didn't read what I said, and utterly missed my points.
This will be my only response, as all I can say further is, "you're doing it again."

I read some of your points. And from what I read, nothing changed my opinion.

This guy actually cares deeply for his wife and family, and it really takes love and dedication to do what he does.

I am not so sure he does. I mean no offense to him. I just am not.
And until I see proof to the contrary, that is probably how I will continue to feel.

I will type one thing more:
Sex is for procreation, not recreation.
And whenever it's used for the latter too much, problems almost always arise - IMO.

 

[saint]

I didn't respond to the poll, but marriage matured me immensely. If I wasn't married, I can't imagine thae life I'd be living now. My gf before my wife was a dancer/model (not stripper) and the carefree life that I lived rivaled the most decadent of my hot boy brethren who prowled the streets. my babe makes me want to be a better man, but she fucks up my pussy ratio. 1:1 is soooo hard, but it's worth it.

 

[Nester6]

Re: [2/2] Partnership, no "blame" only "unhealthy" and moving forward ...

Whether

Thank you for the thought provoking discussions. My wife will NEVER initiate conversations about our relationship problems. I do respect her and her wishes. The 2 children are exhausting, however I think this is an excuse to stay away from me. She'll often sleep on the couch after we both read the children to sleep. I'll come down, have a smoke outside, brush my teeth and prepare for bed and go up. She'll finish reading to the child, come down and watch tv and stay on the couch. This happens very often.
Adultery in my opinion, is always wrong. I have never been with another woman, but I did want to be. I truthfully believe, were I to be satisfied sexually, this temptation would not be present.
I have initiated sex many times before when we experienced suuch episodes and she obliged, although never what I desire. I do not force my preferences in ANY way and expressed clearly what my likes are. To no avail.
Since, I can not initiate any longer since I feel she has no internal wishes for sex, or is to stubborn to oblige. Therefore, we muddle along, each day coming closer to our death. Such time wasted.

 

[Member2019]

Sexual relations are not optional if one wants it ...

My wife will NEVER initiate conversations about our relationship problems. I do respect her and her wishes.

How does she react when you initiate the conversation?
That's why I said you should refrain from calling it "abuse," even if she gives you flak.
Not that it's "wrong," but it will inhibit her from ever wanting to discuss it again.
And that should always be avoided.

Try to be more personable, like, "it's unhealthy for us."
She is your wife and she has pledged herself to please you as you her, and anyone who says otherwise is just asking for an "unhealthy" relationship.
Not "wrong," not about "not living up to your obligations," just "unhealthy."

Don't let people tell you that sexual relations are "optional," because it does affect everything negatively, at least for one person who wants it.

The 2 children are exhausting, however I think this is an excuse to stay away from me. She'll often sleep on the couch after we both read the children to sleep.

Then come down and just kiss her and go back up stairs afterwards.
Doesn't have to be (and probably shouldn't be at first) a kiss on the lips (much less tongue), but just peck on the cheek.
Make her feel wanted without the pressures of sex, and maybe she'll want to explore that further.

I'll come down, have a smoke outside, brush my teeth and prepare for bed and go up.

Does she smoke as well? If not, then ask her if it bothers her.
If it does, then consider giving it up, for her -- you'd be surprised how a little something like sends a signal to her.
Most women not only enjoy men who cater to their desires, but they return it.

She'll finish reading to the child, come down and watch tv and stay on the couch. This happens very often.
Adultery in my opinion, is always wrong.

Never said it was right, just had to point it out to be "complete."

Also remember that Paul (IIRC) stated that even thinking about adultery is adultery.
He didn't say that to force people to "seek higher, moral ground," but to get people to realize that it is how it starts.
That if you're going to lust after another woman, then you might as well sleep with her since your mind is your action.
Because it's about desire, and if you lose the desire and focus on one woman, you're already sinning.
Remember, sins are about what harms yourself, not some moral/religious aspect.

I have never been with another woman, but I did want to be. I truthfully believe, were I to be satisfied sexually, this temptation would not be present.

[/QUOTE] It's not that you want to be with another woman, so you recognize that.
It's that you want to be sexually gratified, even if a little bit, and you recognize that.
But don't look at it as wanting to be with another woman.

In fact, it bothered myself for a long time until I realized that when I saw another woman that I found to be attractive,
it was just myself noticing the physical attributes of my wife in another woman, and I was being reminded.
And once I realized that, I realized that I'd never would want to be with another woman, because my wife was the sum of all lust.
I know a lot of men (and women) recognize that way too late, and after they sleep with someone, it looses all that flavor.
It doesn't feel as complete, fulfilling and it feels like you just ate a McDonald's hamburger at a restaurant with a very high price tag.

I truthfully believe, were I to be satisfied sexually, this temptation would not be present. I have initiated sex many times before when we experienced suuch episodes and she obliged, although never what I desire. I do not force my preferences in ANY way and expressed clearly what my likes are. To no avail.

I know, and I know where you are coming from, and my wife and I had early years like that (with no kids either, even worse).
You've gotta find something that makes her desire you, you gotta send the message to her that you're thinking of her.
That's why I mentioned stopping smoking (if she doesn't) and coming down to just give her a peck on the check on the couch (and nothing more, don't even let her engage more the first few times).

And if she just doesn't have any desire at all after all that, then you need counseling.
You might find that she's very miserable and can't find the way to reach into her own desire, which she really needs to.
My wife was like that at times, and it took some well-placed statements and discussions to get her out of that mode.
Once she did, she never, ever went back, and recognized that our mutual pleasure was something she never wanted to be without again.

Since, I can not initiate any longer since I feel she has no internal wishes for sex, or is to stubborn to oblige. Therefore, we muddle along, each day coming closer to our death. Such time wasted.

Maybe you have to put it to your wife that way, but word it softly and with consideration.
I did several years ago when I realized I wasn't getting and staying as hard as I used to.
It actually "woke her up" to all the time she was missing with myself, and ironically, herself as well.

Maybe you get a sitter and take her out to a very elegant restaurant and calmly walk her through that.
I'll warn you, she will get immediately defensive and even try to land blame on you, even if indirectly.
The one thing you must do when that happens is not even get remotely upset, and respond with something like ...

"Hearing your views is what is important to me, even if we never have sex again or you never initiate sex in the future, I am more worried about the fact that we can't talk about it. I will not get upset or say it's 'unfair' and will never, ever stoop to the level of calling it 'abuse' ever again."

You have to take 100% of the blame and start from there, because every husband is 100% to blame for being unable to communicate with his wife, no matter what the circumstance.
When you decided to marry her, you accepted that, no matter how irrational, unfair, inconsiderate or otherwise.
Maybe she's got some repressed "issues" with you, and those "issues" come up when she thinks of sex.

E.g., she doesn't like your smoking, thinks you don't focus on her enough, thinks you stick her with the kids, etc...
And then she sits back and realized that she doesn't appreciate you either for all you do, provide, for the kids, etc... so she never brings it up.
You have to get to that, and tell her it's alright for her to tell you how she feels, even if it may be "unfair" in her eyes as well.

I know a lot is nothing new, but I constantly have to remind myself that marriage isn't a contract or about required actions or anything else.
It's about making your partner feel loved, considered and that she does have to do anything she doesn't want to -- and it affects every little thing.
With my wife, I literally have to say to her, "I'm not making you do anything you don't want to" at times, and that makes her feel better.
At the same time, sometimes she frets about not wanting to do something that I do, and I finally have to tell her after she says "sorry" the third time (because it's bothering her), "hey, you make your decision and stick with it, but don't fret out-loud that you're not being fair to me, because it's not only not what it's all about, but I don't deserve to hear about your self-doubt of a decision you've made."

It's being both considerate and forward at times, and it's damn hard to find the right words and moments, that matter.
And you have the complexity of kids to add to that, I don't, so I can't pretend to know where you are coming from.

 

[Member2019]

I didn't respond to the poll, but marriage matured me immensely. If I wasn't married, I can't imagine thae life I'd be living now. My gf before my wife was a dancer/model (not stripper) and the carefree life that I lived rivaled the most decadent of my hot boy brethren who prowled the streets. my babe makes me want to be a better man,

I was always ready for marriage, and my values have reflected that since 14-15.
I was a tad bit immature until 21 or so, but I definitely never gave into peer pressure on anything, and wasn't about "fucking as many babes as I can."

but she fucks up my pussy ratio. 1:1 is soooo hard, but it's worth it.

I actually like a pussy ratio of 1:1, been wanting it for years.
I would honestly give up all of my prior lovers to ensure I was a virgin when I had my wife on my honeymoon, but one woman took it from me without my permission
(yes, this is true, and I've talked about it before).

 

[saint]

much respect to you for being so honorable as to want to give something so important to your wife. i couldn't see it for me though. she has my heart, no doubt. my v card? no way.

 

[Member2019]

Nothing to do with respect and honor ...

much respect to you for being so honorable as to want to give something so important to your wife. i couldn't see it for me though. she has my heart, no doubt. my v card? no way.

It really had nothing to do with respect and honor, I just don't like to settle for any experience less than my wife.
The woman who mounted me without my permission is a woman I'm still very pissed off at.

It's really that simple, it's really that selfish, when I unload my shaft, it likes to be unloaded with the woman who makes me climax like no other.
In fact, if I ever lose my wife, I'd probably never re-marry, because I just don't like to settle for anything less.
Especially not a lover who hasn't spent the last almost 15 years learning my body and what makes me moan the greatest.

I've had plenty of lovers before my wife, all safe sex (with the exception that I'm addicted to providing oral, stupid me).
Nearly all were mammary intercourse (tit-fucks), and I will always cherish a few.
But I'd give up all those experiences to avoid the girlfriend who mounted me when I didn't realize what she was up to.

 

[Nester6]

Re: Sexual relations are not optional if one wants it ...

How does she react when you initiate the conversation?

Thanks prof! You've been a great help. I'll let you know how it goes,but things are bad. I spent the whole day cleaning the house, and working in the yard while she took the pool down. The kids played with friends who called them over for 3 hours. She layed down on the couch and watched the Penn State game with me and she promptly fell asleep.
This, after not having sex for months! I just can't talk with her anymore because it produces nothing but hurt feelings.
I'll re read your post and try again. My smoking doesn't bother her as she periodically obliges. Thanks, and I am glad you are truly happy.

 

[shayd]

The only thing worthless about marriage is the attitudes of those married people who don't realize that marriages is all about adjustments. Inevitably, two people are different, and will agree and disagree on things, and in my view, people today are far too quick to just throw in the towel. It's rediculous. I'd say the divorce rate today is more accurate in measuring the people who are getting married than the institution itself. If I ever need proof, I can look to my mom and dad, who have been married for 46 years and are still going strong, and believe me, they've made adjustments. All in the name of love.

 

[Iamforever]

The only thing worthless about marriage is the attitudes of those married people who don't realize that marriages is all about adjustments. Inevitably, two people are different, and will agree and disagree on things, and in my view, people today are far too quick to just throw in the towel. It's rediculous. I'd say the divorce rate today is more accurate in measuring the people who are getting married than the institution itself. If I ever need proof, I can look to my mom and dad, who have been married for 46 years and are still going strong, and believe me, they've made adjustments. All in the name of love.

can i say post of all time? in my experiences, people fight. i dont care who you are, be it spouses, friends, family, people fight. its our nature to. all that matters is that you would live or die for your other. if you have that, nothing else matters. money? fights? irrelevant.


sometimes marriage is abused. be it convenience, opportunity, love, a whim, or because you have parents that force it because they come from the old country, i agree this is a major factor in divorce rate. a lot of people do get married and dont think.

 

[Roughneck]

My parents were married until my mother passed away. So great was my Father's love for his wife (and subsequent sense of loss at my Mother's passing), that he never married again. He chose to remain a widower.

My wife and I have been together for well over 30 years now. Goodness knows our relationship has had it's ups and downs. We've had many fights. Have experienced much hardship and grief - including the loss of a home with everything in it and the death of a child.

But we've also experienced much joy - my wife bore me 3 children. My children are my life. Our kids are the most important thing in the world to us. My wife and I have loved, laughed and shared each other over all these years. We've raised two wonderful children. We've built a home together. We've shared and built life together.

Hell, we still have lots of sex and enjoy it too! That's right kids, us old people have sex too


Every morning when I wake up, I feel like the luckiest man alive - not simply because I'm living, but because she's by my side. It sounds very "corny" but it's the simple truth.

I love my wife :lovecoupl


And as far as marriage being a "worthless" institution? I would say that marriage is just as good and wonderful as it has always been - marriage itself, as a platonic ideal, has not changed. The way that people approach it has changed.

That doesn't mean that it should be done away with - it means that people approach it differently. The essential idea behind marriage is still the same - commitment. Marriage maybe a symbol of that commitment - but it is an important symbol, because it "marks" that commitment. It says "I will not walk away - I will not falter, I will not quit." The fact that some people make that commitment without understanding it or intending it has nothing to do with the institution itself.

Marriage may not be for everyone - and it doesn't have to be. There is no shame nor harm in that.

Don't like marriage? Don't get married.
It really is as simple as that.


People who get married aren't fools - just as folks who remain single all their lives or enjoy open relationships aren't fools.



cheers,
R.

 

[Iamforever]

Every morning when I wake up, I feel like the luckiest man alive - not simply because I'm living, but because she's by my side. It sounds very "corny" but it's the simple truth.

what corny? i am not corny. i feel the same way as you do. :thumbsup:

 

[ÆGEAN]

i would love to get that feeling when i get married and i believe that i will.

My cousins tell me this feeling and i hope i will have that too

 

[Member2019]

Multiple responses ...

Thanks prof! You've been a great help.

I don't think so, I'm just trying to understand some things out loud.

I'll let you know how it goes,but things are bad.

I don't know what you mean by "bad," and it's really all in the first-person attitude.
You might say "the sex is non-existent" and "the husband-wife thing is non-existent."
I assume that's what you meant.

Always take stock in what you have, and from the sounds of it, you do.

I spent the whole day cleaning the house, and working in the yard while she took the pool down
The kids played with friends who called them over for 3 hours.
She layed down on the couch and watched the Penn State game with me and she promptly fell asleep.

Well, was she laying down with you on the same couch?
Have you ever tried to just come over and lay with her on the couch, without being otherwise intimate?
That's always an option, even if nothing happens.

This, after not having sex for months!
I just can't talk with her anymore because it produces nothing but hurt feelings.

I don't know what to tell you other than ...
A) Never give up
B) Never take offense

Find out why she isn't turned on by you, you've gotta get that communication going.
I know it's far, far easier said than done, especially when it comes to not getting emotional.
In fact, it may take a long time of persistence to get her to open up again, especially if you've been emotional in the past when it came up.

I'll re read your post and try again.

You honestly can't give up, ever, unless you don't want the husband-wife part anymore.
I know it's so tough, especially when she finally engages you in the conversation and all those emotions come out.
That's why there is counseling, a 3rd person to keep those emotions from ending the discussion.

My smoking doesn't bother her as she periodically obliges

If she is a non-smoker, you might ask her and see if she does mind.
Furthermore, as I hinted, try to stop smoking and see if she notices.
A lot of smokers don't realize how much it bothers themselves until they stop smoking.

Thanks, and I am glad you are truly happy.

My wife and I are honest with each other, and that really, really helps.
We're far from perfect, and we do argue, and we both have our selfish emotions at times.
But one thing I have never done is said something in-spite, something that really pays off for me regularly.

E.g., I have never called my wife a bitch, ugly, unattractive, abusive or anything else than "inconsiderate" or "selfish" or similar, and I'm specific when I do on a specific event or detail.
It doesn't matter how mad I am, and it's not about respect or that she doesn't deserve it.
It's about the fact that anytime I say something, how she reacts will affect our communication in the future.

That's the key.

Another is to make her feel special.
Have you ever just called the baby sitter (or if your kids are old enough to watch themselves) and booked dinner and then the Holiday Inn?
You said you provide enough, do you have enough to spend another $100/month to do that once a month?

The only thing worthless about marriage is the attitudes of those married people who don't realize that marriages is all about adjustments. Inevitably, two people are different, and will agree and disagree on things, and in my view, people today are far too quick to just throw in the towel. It's rediculous. I'd say the divorce rate today is more accurate in measuring the people who are getting married than the institution itself. If I ever need proof, I can look to my mom and dad, who have been married for 46 years and are still going strong, and believe me, they've made adjustments. All in the name of love.

My wife is not the same woman I met or married, she is better.
We have changed over our relationship, and all of those changes have been very compatible.
It could have easily been otherwise.

Then again, my wife didn't give me blowjobs to get me to marry her and then stop.
And I didn't just marry her to get her off my back to marry her.
We were honest and forward and open about everything before and after marriage.

The happiest day, and I'm not saying this in retrospect, but on that very day, was when I got married.
My wife could utterly tell I was so happy and just in heaven when I married her.
And that carries forward to today, and I love her more now than when I married her.

And she is more beautiful now in her 30s than she was when I met her at 18.

can i say post of all time? in my experiences, people fight. i dont care who you are, be it spouses, friends, family, people fight. its our nature to. all that matters is that you would live or die for your other. if you have that, nothing else matters. money? fights? irrelevant.
sometimes marriage is abused. be it convenience, opportunity, love, a whim, or because you have parents that force it because they come from the old country, i agree this is a major factor in divorce rate. a lot of people do get married and dont think.

The age-old non-sense of "peer-pressure" doesn't get anywhere with me.

I respect my parents, but I learned to ignore my mother at age 15+, despite all the groundings she gave me as a result.
My values were strong, and I didn't need her guidance, because it was often too judgmental.
At the same time, it's her own "tough love" that taught me self-reliance, independence and set me down the path of self-realization.

I've never drank or done drugs in my life, and while I wasn't innocent, I didn't do anything remotely stupid.
I was the guy people tried to pressure into drinking, going out with "less fat chicks" and countless other things.
Sorry, I want what I want and no one was going to tell me otherwise, including my wife (who my mother hated at the time).

Ironically, going for what you want for the rest of your life is very simple, but too many people make it complex.
Or worse yet, they are never satisfied and don't stop to realize how good they have it, especially after they "get used to it."

 

[angelfire1972]

it's a need

 

[McRocket]

Two things (both IMO obviously):

1) Marriage is definitely not a worthless institution.

2) Truly great couples do not fight or argue. They disagree. But they do not fight.
I have not known many great relationships. But the ones I did - they told me they never fought, they just disagreed. No shouting or yelling or raising of voices in the slightest disrespectful manner. Just civil disagreements that were always resolved quickly.

(every woman I dated or lived with when the relationship was good/great - we never fought. When it wasen't - we did)

Having typed the above, I believe truly great relationships probably make up less then 5% (if not less then 2%) of all long term relationships.

 

[Gugi22]

It's only a letter on paper.

 

[Legzman]

Marriage itself as an institution is pointless! It's just a piece of paper where you have different legalities and such involved with it.

If you truly love someone, you shouldn't have to feel you need to be married to be 100% committed to that person!

Like for me I live with my girlfriend, hell we bought a house together. Why do we need to be married? We do everything that married couples do! Only difference I can see is we can't file joint taxes! Big fuckin deal!

 

[Member2019]

Doh!

Doh!