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It's Official: Arafat is Dead
- Thread starter member2686
- Start date
georges said:
Like you say, Israel was created in 1948. The Israelis were the settlers in a foreign country, and decided "hey, this is OUR holy land, we dont care if you dont believe us, we're staying." "So we're going to have to bulldoze your houses, and leave your families without homes, just so we can have OUR holy land. If you dont like it, just try and fight us, we have the most advanced military technology, thanks to our buddies in the White house."
What did you expect the Palestinians to do? Just accept it? They didnt have any weapons or political means to fight back, so of course there was going to be an uprising.
Nightfly said:
You know, Nighyfly you can't can't really open up a topic like this and expect people to not to argue a little. Arafat was a controversal guy that alot of people looked at as being a terrorist. Plus there is all kinds of controversal emotional sh*t surrounding the whole subject. It's almost like a set up for an arguement.
it's really a sad news 
Arafat is no more
don't know wat the thing going to happen for Palestine :dunno:
Arafat is no more
don't know wat the thing going to happen for Palestine :dunno:
sabrefan said:
Yeah, because Arafat was a peaceful man
He was the founder of modern terrorism. Good riddance. There is a better chance of peace being found without him than with him. He had his chance under Clinton to sign a good deal for the Palestinians and he backed out. He never condemned the 9/11 attacks in his own language to his own people. He gave money to the families of suicide bombers.
itsame said:
I agree with you, partially. They did arrive and say we want our land (from eons ago) back. And they did take it from the now Palestinians. However, they had just come through a war that saw 6 million of their number gassed to death (or otherwise killed) strictly because of their religious heritage. So it is hard to blame them for being fed up.
Having said that it doesn't give them the right to take the land either. And BTW early on, they were not militarily supported by the US government (they sure as shit are now though to the tune of $3 Billion per year - alot of money for a country with just over 6 million people).
Apparently the Jews and the Arabs co-existed (rather badly) for awhile; and had for awhile before 1948. But the British were rulers of the land and tried to keep the peace -- and with possibly the best of intentions, mistakenly fucked it up (as they did in Cyprus, Northern Ireland, India, etc.). So then the Arabs and their neighbours tried to irradicate the Jews in '48 and '73 (the Israelis started '56 and '67 - the latter in defence they say) and the west helped the Israelis. First the Brits and the French. Finally the US.
And make no mistake, if Nixon haden't decided to help Israel in '73, there might not be an Israel today.
Enough of the history lesson. The bottom line is who is worse? The Jews for wanting a land of their own after the holocaust (very understandable) and taking what land they felt they needed (not nearly so understandable). Or the Palestinains who had some of their land taken away (big drag for them) and then lost the rest of it when the Arabs (backed by the Soviets) tried to wipe Israel off of the map, but failed miserably?
Up until about 1982 (certainly 1973), I would tend to back Israel. But since then, with their nucleur tipped IRBM's and massive US backing, they are the military power of the Middle East (though that will get interesting when Iran gets nukes), they don't need any help. And they are preventing the Palestinians from starting their own country.
If the Palestinians want their old land back, forget it. You lost the war, it's over, get over it. It's just land. Feed your families. But if they want The West Banlk and the Gaza Strip for their own country? What is wrong with that? And Israel is not allowing them to have it. So right now, I blame Israel, and the Palestinain suicide bombers. Before the Intafada (spelling?), I just blamed Israel. And if the suicide bombings stop, I'll just blame Israel again (and the US for backing them).
According to the CIA World Fact Book; the average purchasing power of the average Israeli citizen is (in 2003) $19,800 US. The average for The West Bank and the Gaza Strip is $800 and $600 US respectively. And Israel still won't let them go. And this situation has been going on continuously since at least '73. No wonder the Palestinians are ticked. No wonder Israel is so hated in the region (among other reasons). And as long as the US is propping up the Israelis, no wonder the US is hated by the Arab world.
And how do you think the Arab world will look upon the US invading Iraq? Afghanistan was different. Nobody could blame the US there. But Iraq is another matter.
I believe if the US would just bud out of that region, any terrorist threat would diminish completely.
Went on a bit of a rant there...lol
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So you beleive Bin Laden when he says if we leave he will not try to kill us anymore?
Come on. These people aren't rational thinkers. They have nothing to live for except the 72 virgins they think they are getting.
And WHO THE FUCK would want 72 virgins anyway. I'd rather have one slut than 72 virgins. The 72 virgins sounds more like hell than heaven. Being told "no" 72 times could hurt a man's ego
Come on. These people aren't rational thinkers. They have nothing to live for except the 72 virgins they think they are getting.
And WHO THE FUCK would want 72 virgins anyway. I'd rather have one slut than 72 virgins. The 72 virgins sounds more like hell than heaven. Being told "no" 72 times could hurt a man's ego
Harry Lime said:So you beleive Bin Laden when he says if we leave he will not try to kill us anymore?
Come on. These people aren't rational thinkers. They have nothing to live for except the 72 virgins they think they are getting.
And WHO THE FUCK would want 72 virgins anyway. I'd rather have one slut than 72 virgins. The 72 virgins sounds more like hell than heaven. Being told "no" 72 times could hurt a man's ego
No, I don't think Bin Laden would leave us alone. But he is only as powerful as his powerbase. And if the US stops supporting Israel, gets out of Iraq completely (after the elections over there) and stays out of everyone's business; then I think his powerbase would eventually dry up. And with that, his power.
BTW What is the 72 virgin thingy you mentioned? Is this something one gets for the most posts on Freeones? lol
PLUS Big LOL to Harry Lime.
mcrocket said:
Radical Islamists beleive if they die a martyr, they go to heaven and 72 virgins await them.
Harry Lime said:
Oh such nobility. Die a martyr so you can get laid. Not for country, or decency, but sex. I'm exaggerating, yes. But come one. Can't religions ever try and sell their 'package' without making promises of horror if you don't do something and grandeur if you do?
Companies are not allowed (I think) to make such ridiculous promises in their advertising. Why are religions?
'The new 2005 Ford Mustang. With V6 or V8 engine.
Buy it and you can have sex with 72 virgins when you die. But if you don't, when you pass on you will spend all eternity in the fires of hell.
And of course, don't forget our low, low interest rates.'
Also, I like the photo Itsame. Looks like Arafat took Saddam's place. He's gonna be ticked. Last time Satan moved in with someone (Chris), Saddam was really pissed.(South Park inside joke)
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member2686
Banned
Roflmao
OMG I am literally :rofl:!!!!!! Those pics are the funniest I've seen in awhile!!!!
OMG I am literally :rofl:!!!!!! Those pics are the funniest I've seen in awhile!!!!
Fuck Arafat!!
How sick is this guy?
He was supposedly fighting a life-long struggle for his people and his country, but in classic politician behavoir, his ego and his place in history was more important.
The PLO has assets of at least a billion dollars and the very people he "fought for" continue to suffer in poverty and turmoil?
At the Camp David Peace talks a few years back, he was offered a deal with Israel that, in light of today's hostilities, was very generous. And he turned it down? Yeah I guess being confined in his room for two years was a much better option.
I take no sides on the Israel vs Palestine debate - their hate for one another goes back centuries and picking out the good guy between them is impossible for me.
Nothing will ever change. The same old game will be played with new faces, and people will continue to die.
Peace is a concept that requires more than negotiation. Bringing it about can't be achieved by a few men in suits signing fancy documents. It's all bullshit.
We are taught to hate, to judge and to kill our fellow man. Us and them, bla, bla, bla. :dunno:
Thanks for nothing, Arafat :2 cents:
How sick is this guy?
He was supposedly fighting a life-long struggle for his people and his country, but in classic politician behavoir, his ego and his place in history was more important.
The PLO has assets of at least a billion dollars and the very people he "fought for" continue to suffer in poverty and turmoil?
At the Camp David Peace talks a few years back, he was offered a deal with Israel that, in light of today's hostilities, was very generous. And he turned it down? Yeah I guess being confined in his room for two years was a much better option.
I take no sides on the Israel vs Palestine debate - their hate for one another goes back centuries and picking out the good guy between them is impossible for me.
Nothing will ever change. The same old game will be played with new faces, and people will continue to die.
Peace is a concept that requires more than negotiation. Bringing it about can't be achieved by a few men in suits signing fancy documents. It's all bullshit.
We are taught to hate, to judge and to kill our fellow man. Us and them, bla, bla, bla. :dunno:
Thanks for nothing, Arafat :2 cents:
mcrocket said:
There is one point where I disagree. Palestinians are basically migrants from other arab countries.You forget that in the 20's-30's some Jews from Euroipe migrated to Israel.Israel is a developped country and a true democracy as compared to most of its neighbours.
US is hated by the Arab world because of its culture and because it has dared to fight terrorism in Afghanistan and in Irak too.The persons who hates US in the arab world are those islamist fanatics. Israel fights terrorism by all the means, it is hated in region because not only it had defeated its agressors in 1967 and 1973 but also because it is one of the strongest military force in the region.
You also failed to mention that Israel has its own military indutries (Israel Military Industries and Isreal Aircraft Industries).Israel built its own tanks (merkava), guns (galils, jerichos, uzi, tavor, galatz, desert eagle (now built by mri), planes (kfir c2 and c7)) and missiles (shaffrir, pithon, rafel,etc). The only planes baught by Israel to the us were the b17 inthe 50's,a4 skyhawk in the 60's-70's,f4 phantomII in the 60's, f16 in 80 mid 90's and f15 in the early 80's late 90's.Israel has an enough advanced military and technology industry to be independant.
Back to the subject, Arafat was offered a chance to have peace during clinton's presidency but he failed to grab it because he was unable and probably unwilling to stop the terrorist groups and dismantle them once for good.
I don't see a problem of US backing up Israel, democracies must help democracies as well as fighting terrorism together.
Just another info, not all the palestinian suicide bombers were that poor because most of them were educated person who had a great income but they were endoctrined to hate the jews. Even at palestinian schools, scholar books describe the jews as bad people so the responsability of the chaos that happens is mainly due to the Palestinians who supported Arafat and who supported terrorism against Israel.
georges said:
You seem (IMO) to know your military hardware.
But, as usual, we disagree on a few points.
1) I am not Palestinian or Arab (and I assume, neither are you). So neither of us knows what is in the hearts of those people as to why they 'hate' the U.S.. I disagree that most Arabs/Muslims hate US culture. Their religious fanatics do. But I do not think that is why most do. I think that they hate the U.S. budding in where it was not wanted and for backing Israel so strongly. You disagree. Fair enough. I have no opinion polls of Arabs/Muslims to back up my arguement. If you do, I would be interested in seeing them.
2) I agree that democracies should help other democracies. But the Palestinains are fighting to get their own democracy, and Israel will not let them. Why is this SO different (in principle - not methods) then the American Revolutionary War? The U.S. wanted to be free of England. England did not want to let them go. So Americans (and apparently a huge number of French soldiers also) killed as many British as they could to gain their objective. Now suicide bombing innocent civilians is cowardly in the extreme. And militarily stupid in my opinion. But how else should they do it? Israel simply will not let them go. So how do you suggest they do it? Not how should they do it. I suspect that we both know of more decent ways to do it. But they have tried for a generation to be free and Israel will not relent. Can you really not see why after all this time and all their poverty compared to Jewish Israeli's (average per capita GDP at 1/28th of Jewish Israeli's as of 2003), why they are resorting to such desperate (and stupid) acts? I can see why. I don't like it or agree with it. But I understand it. And if I was a child raised in that situation, I may be doing the same thing (though I would hope not).
3) Finally, militarily. You are right that Israel has developed a powerful (for it's size) defence industry. But I look upon it as the Japanese were until 20 or 30 years ago. They built better mouse traps. Not new types of mouse traps. They just took ideas from the west and improved upon them.
The Kfir and the Python are good examples. The Python, I have read, is a great AA missile. I have also read (at www.globalsecurity.org for one source) that the Python is basically a reworked Sidewinder.
And the Kfir came out of necessity. The Frence stopped selling Mirages to Israel. But Israel liked them. So they took a slightly reworked Mirage III airframe and stuck a F-4 Phantom engine (the J79) in it. Well engineered, yes. But hardly leading edge technology.
They tried to buid the Lavi; but I read that basically the U.S. nicked the idea because it would compete too closely with the F-16.
And that is my point. The Israeli military (especially the Israeli Air Force - and without an Air Force, you are virtually nothing as a powerful military wannebe) is TOTALLY dependent on the United States. If you go to the above mentioned website amd check out Israel's Air Force (the IAF) you will see that the Kfir (which is a J79 engined Mirage, basically) and one small transport plane are the only aircarft on the entire Israeli inventory (outside of remotely piloted aircraft, and many, many countries can build those) designed and built by Israel.
Europe long ago stopped selling to Israel (I assume so as to not piss off the Arabs and their oil) so the U.S. is it in the West (as far as I know).
Also, according to the CIA World Fact Book, in Fiscal Year 2002 Israel spent $9.11 Billion U.S. on defence. That is 8.7% of their total GDP. That is a very high percentage (the U.S., in comparison in FY 2003, spent 3.3%. France 2.6%) of the GDP. A country, I would imagine, would have a hard time sustaining that indefinitely without it significantly affecting their overall
economy.
But since Israel gets $3 Billion U.S. from Washington (which is almost entirely in the form of military equipment or money for military equipment - or so I believe) then that means that the Untied States is, in essence, funding fully 1/3 of Israel's defence budget.
So I disagree with you when you say that Israel could go it alone. Without the U.S., I believe that Israel (especially when Iran gets nukes) would no longer be the dominant military force in the Middle East. Especially once their spare parts started drying up for all those sexy, state-of-the-art fighters they get for (basically) free from Uncle Sam.
Do I want Israel to be defeated? No. I just want them to let the Palestinains have the West Bank and the Gaza strip for their own. And I want the US to stop backing Israel so strongly and to pull out of Iraq completely once the elections are over. And then mind their own business and concentrate on getting Bin Laden - militarily speaking.
Hard to believe this is a porn site, huh?
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