Iranian Politics; Are things changing or more of the same?

[Serpent7]

What is your evidence that it's' "fueled by outsiders"??

Mousavi seems to think he has a case so do his followers...the Iranian government even says there were voting irregularities. I guess the media is using trick photography to create all of those cell phone videos of protests and government backed militia cracking their sculls huh?

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=47272

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...secret-talks-on-nuclear-programme-808647.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090617/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=481268&publicationSubCategoryId=200

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/12/administration-pleased-iranian-election-participation/

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/11/iran.election.women/index.html

http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/us-media-campaign-to-discredit-iranian-election/

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/hammond1.html


I can post more links about it, but you get the idea... History showes we have always been in there busieness, and will continue to do so because of there oil, or there ability to control it, and there location on the map.. Im not saying we directly meddled in the election, that would be to odvious, but in- directly we have planted seed, after seed until we get the desired results, and then it looks as if we had nothing to do with it. This has been going on since the 50's, and now we have a "human rights" issue so we can now go in directly with a reason. That's my opinion.

If we had Iranian companies like twitter comercializing, and glorifying the Isliamic faith since the 50's (not that twitter has been around that long, but other "colonial" compaines have tried to infiltrate Iran) and all the kids were doing it and loving it we (the US) would be infiltrated. We have had so much influence on this election its not even funny. We really need to leave other countries alone and concentrate on our own problems, like healthcare, reciptes from voting, the power of lobbiests, out of control government spending on wars and etc... stuff, more than a two party system, etc...

You dont agree? I thought we agreed on everything...LOL

 

[CunningStunts]

More of the same. The guys in power there need this to happen, to focus the people's attention on an "external" threat, to keep at least most of the people's support. It's the oldest trick in governing...

 

[Dman25]

Maybe if they had someone with brains, balls, and Charisma to lead the opposition.

 

[Hot Mega]

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=47272

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...secret-talks-on-nuclear-programme-808647.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090617/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=481268&publicationSubCategoryId=200

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/12/administration-pleased-iranian-election-participation/

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/11/iran.election.women/index.html

http://www.chartingstocks.net/2009/06/us-media-campaign-to-discredit-iranian-election/

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/hammond1.html


I can post more links about it, but you get the idea... History showes we have always been in there busieness, and will continue to do so because of there oil, or there ability to control it, and there location on the map.. Im not saying we directly meddled in the election, that would be to odvious, but in- directly we have planted seed, after seed until we get the desired results, and then it looks as if we had nothing to do with it. This has been going on since the 50's, and now we have a "human rights" issue so we can now go in directly with a reason. That's my opinion.

If we had Iranian companies like twitter comercializing, and glorifying the Isliamic faith since the 50's (not that twitter has been around that long, but other "colonial" compaines have tried to infiltrate Iran) and all the kids were doing it and loving it we (the US) would be infiltrated. We have had so much influence on this election its not even funny. We really need to leave other countries alone and concentrate on our own problems, like healthcare, reciptes from voting, the power of lobbiests, out of control government spending on wars and etc... stuff, more than a two party system, etc...

You dont agree? I thought we agreed on everything...LOL

Are you a member of the Revolutionary Guard or something...you sure sound like it.

I'll get to your links in a sec but everyone has a right to express and disseminate their views on twitter....twitter has nothing to do with spreading anything in so far as their company orchestrating agendas. You're just flat wrong on that one.

If the Iranian government is so concerned with the latest "upraising" being "fueled by outsiders" why are they so fearful of showing us what's going on with the insiders?? They are the one's busting skulls, confiscating camera phones, locking down all the press except for the state propaganda press, kidnapping people for dissenting, etc. If you are supportive of that regime, what's to be proud of about that??? What's to be proud of in a government that tells individuals how to think, what they can and cannot say, what types of information they may receive (or send)???

As far as your links and evidence this latest "upraising is being fueled by outsiders"

Your first link;

"I have deep concerns about the election," Obama said in an interview on Tuesday. "When I see violence directed at peaceful protestors, when I see peaceful dissent being suppressed, wherever that takes place, it is of concern to me and it's of concern to the American people."

He also said the election "is ultimately for the Iranian people to decide".

Our president said it's up to the Iranians...he's the one who sets policy not some think tank and his statement is a direct contradiction to your assertion.

2nd link deals with secret Bush era nuclear meetings. How is that evidence of of this latest "upraising" being "fueled by outsiders"?

3rd link just deals with an (another) accusation leveled by Ahmadinejad (what else is new??) and the closest thing I've seen towards meddling with our state department requesting twitter to hold off on scheduled maintenance.

4th link discusses twitters role in the aftermath of the election. But twitter is just a passive platform for exchanging ideas. twitter isn't barring Ahmadinejad nor any of his goons from tweeting their side.

5th link another contradiction to your premise IMO

No matter who wins, Obama said, the vote may advance U.S. diplomatic efforts in Iran.

"Obviously, after the speech that I made in Cairo, we tried to send a clear message that we think there is the possibility of change," he said. "Whoever ends up winning the election in Iran, the fact that there's been a robust debate hopefully will help advance our ability to engage them in new ways."

State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley told reporters that the administration would continue its efforts to engage Iran no matter who wins the election.

"Our outreach to Iran is not dependent on a particular result," he said. "We look forward to engaging the new Iranian administration on the full range of issues before us."

6th link is fairly irrelevant as it's merely discussing the Iranian vote and women's rights.

7th link claims there is some US media scheme to discredit the Iranian elections...There IS??? I thought it was the hundreds of thousands of protesters IN Iran who are claiming the the election was a sham. Even the Iranian government has found problems with the election results.

8th link cites historical references but nothing that I see related to the current "upraising" as you suggested.

 

[blakey]

was fox not iranian ?
haven't seen anything of him around lately

the way i see it, and the way it's been reported in the quality press in the uk
-

is that there is no way Achmedinnijad won -
in many of the constituences there were more than
100% of the known number of voters,
and it's just clear, with the shit the conservative, immoral,
illegitimate government are doing
that they know the only instrument they can use which may keep
them in power is terror
- not hamas style obviously,
against their own people,
- stalin & nkvd style
:2 cents:

 

[Serpent7]

Are you a member of the Revolutionary Guard or something...you sure sound like it.

I'll get to your links in a sec but everyone has a right to express and disseminate their views on twitter....twitter has nothing to do with spreading anything in so far as their company orchestrating agendas. You're just flat wrong on that one.

If the Iranian government is so concerned with the latest "upraising" being "fueled by outsiders" why are they so fearful of showing us what's going on with the insiders?? They are the one's busting skulls, confiscating camera phones, locking down all the press except for the state propaganda press, kidnapping people for dissenting, etc. If you are supportive of that regime, what's to be proud of about that??? What's to be proud of in a government that tells individuals how to think, what they can and cannot say, what types of information they may receive (or send)???

As far as your links and evidence this latest "upraising is being fueled by outsiders"

Your first link;



Our president said it's up to the Iranians...he's the one who sets policy not some think tank and his statement is a direct contradiction to your assertion.

2nd link deals with secret Bush era nuclear meetings. How is that evidence of of this latest "upraising" being "fueled by outsiders"?

3rd link just deals with an (another) accusation leveled by Ahmadinejad (what else is new??) and the closest thing I've seen towards meddling with our state department requesting twitter to hold off on scheduled maintenance.

4th link discusses twitters role in the aftermath of the election. But twitter is just a passive platform for exchanging ideas. twitter isn't barring Ahmadinejad nor any of his goons from tweeting their side.

5th link another contradiction to your premise IMO





6th link is fairly irrelevant as it's merely discussing the Iranian vote and women's rights.

7th link claims there is some US media scheme to discredit the Iranian elections...There IS??? I thought it was the hundreds of thousands of protesters IN Iran who are claiming the the election was a sham. Even the Iranian government has found problems with the election results.

8th link cites historical references but nothing that I see related to the current "upraising" as you suggested.

LOL, I do not support there way of life at all, however I do rescpect other peoples differences, and if thats the way there country is, I sure wouldnt try to change them, thats the meddling part from the beginning.

What Pres. say in public, and what we as a country do, sometimes is not the same thing (Iran contra, for example) so please dont believe everything that comes out of Obama's mouth.

We sold Iran, and other middle east countries the guns and bombs to do this with to there own people. "We gave them the ability to do so". We injected democracy into a socity that until recently (1950's) did not support it, why do you think? For the good of the people? Or so we can control them in-directly. We havent done that to China, Cuba??? Why? Because they wont allow it. And Cuba is paying dearly for it. And China owns us, so we cant do it to them right now, but every chance we get, we are trying (Mc Donalds, Levis, etc...) military is the only way we have a 1-up on China, and that would be direct and we wont (yet) do that.

If we in the pass (as you agreed, and prof) was shown, and documented "meddled" with Iran, what makes you think we are not now? All of a sudden we are a "more moral" country? Iran's leader is quoted as saying he believes the US is meddling in there elections and you just totally dismiss that claim because why??? They lie and we dont??? If the US acused Iran for meddling in our election and they truely did not would you automatically believe the US's claim??? America is known (and documented) around the world for directly, and in-directly meddling in other countrys affairs as long as its in our interest and thats just wrong. Thats one of the reasons we are now hated so much around the world... It has caught up with us.

Its too early to have concrete prof, but the finger pointing has at least started, and Im not suprised given our track record as a country. Trust me, it will come out soon enough. Its only been a matter of weeks.

 

[Hot Mega]

LOL, I do not support there way of life at all, however I do rescpect other peoples differences, and if thats the way there country is, I sure wouldnt try to change them, thats the meddling part from the beginning.

What Pres. say in public, and what we as a country do, sometimes is not the same thing (Iran contra, for example) so please dont believe everything that comes out of Obama's mouth.

We sold Iran, and other middle east countries the guns and bombs to do this with to there own people. "We gave them the ability to do so". We injected democracy into a socity that until recently (1950's) did not support it, why do you think? For the good of the people? Or so we can control them in-directly. We havent done that to China, Cuba??? Why? Because they wont allow it. And Cuba is paying dearly for it. And China owns us, so we cant do it to them right now, but every chance we get, we are trying (Mc Donalds, Levis, etc...) military is the only way we have a 1-up on China, and that would be direct and we wont (yet) do that.

If we in the pass (as you agreed, and prof) was shown, and documented "meddled" with Iran, what makes you think we are not now? All of a sudden we are a "more moral" country? Iran's leader is quoted as saying he believes the US is meddling in there elections and you just totally dismiss that claim because why??? They lie and we dont??? If the US acused Iran for meddling in our election and they truely did not would you automatically believe the US's claim??? America is known (and documented) around the world for directly, and in-directly meddling in other countrys affairs as long as its in our interest and thats just wrong. Thats one of the reasons we are now hated so much around the world... It has caught up with us.

Its too early to have concrete prof, but the finger pointing has at least started, and Im not suprised given our track record as a country. Trust me, it will come out soon enough. Its only been a matter of weeks.

I don't see any problem with hoping to have relationships with countries we we're previously hostile with. But sometimes you need the idiots out of the way so that the two countries can coexist peacefully. Our president has made himself clear....it's ultimately up to the Iranians. Now unless you can provide evidence of him doing something else contradictory to that statement...I'll have to take him at his word.

 

[Serpent7]

Its not him (I don't think), its our Government, or at least the powers that control it.

 

[Member2019]

There's a point ...

There's a point where the "excuse" (of past, external influence) doesn't justify the "actions" (currently).

In fact, aren't some of the same people here "excusing" the actions of Iran on its people the same who claim the US focusing on external threats to justify actions and privacy violations were wrong?

This is what gets to me as a Libertarian, people trying to use/accepting anything as an excuse, and not realizing the freedoms they are giving up.

Chavez comes to mind, as well as the actions in various nations of South American. All have a legitimate gripe against the US, but that doesn't mean you vote away your rights to a cult-of-personality.

 

[Hot Mega]

Pro-reform clerical body protests Iran elections

TEHRAN (AFP) – A pro-reform clerical group protested against the official results of Iran's June 12 presidential election, in a statement made available to AFP.
Blasting the official electoral watchdog, the Guardians Council, the Assembly of Qom Seminary Scholars and Researchers said it no longer had the "right to judge in this case as some of its members have lost their impartial image in the eyes of the public."

On Tuesday, the unelected 12-member council upheld the re-election of hardline incumbent Mahmoud Ahmadinejad over complaints of fraud from his challengers that had brought hundreds of thousands out onto the streets.

Government spokesman Gholam Hossein Elham is a council member.
The reformist clerics said the council "did not pay attention" to the complaints lodged by defeated candidates Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi.

"The voice of people seeking justice was marred by violence which unfortunately left several dead and wounded and hundreds arrested," they said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090705/wl_mideast_afp/iranvoteclerics

 

[Hot Mega]

Thousands protest in Iran, defying crackdown vow

By NASSER KARIMI, Associated Press Writer – 44 mins ago
TEHRAN, Iran – Thousands of protesters streamed down avenues of the capital Thursday, chanting "death to the dictator" and defying security forces who fired tear gas and charged with batons, witnesses said.

Turning garbage bins into burning barricades and darting through choking clouds of tear gas, the opposition made its first foray into the streets in nearly two weeks in an attempt to revive mass demonstrations that were crushed in Iran's postelection turmoil.

Iranian authorities had promised tough action to prevent the marches, which supporters of opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi have been planning for days through the Internet. Heavy police forces deployed at key points in the city ahead of the marches, and Tehran's governor vowed to "smash" anyone who heeded the demonstration calls.

In some places, police struck hard. Security forces chased after protesters, beating them with clubs on Valiasr Street, Tehran's biggest north-south avenue, witnesses said.

Women in headscarves and young men dashed away, rubbing their eyes in pain as police fired tear gas, in footage aired on state-run Press TV. In a photo from Thursday's events in Tehran obtained by The Associated Press outside Iran, a woman with her black headscarf looped over her face thrust her fist into the air in front of a garbage bin that had been set on fire.
In another image, a man dropped to his knees, overcome by the effects of tear gas.

But the clampdown was not total. At Tehran University, a line of police blocked a crowd from reaching the gates of the campus, but then did not move to disperse them as the protesters chanted "Mir Hossein" and "death to the dictator" and waved their hands in the air, witnesses said. The crowd grew to nearly 1,000 people, the witnesses said.

"Police, protect us," some of the demonstrators chanted, asking the forces not to move against them.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iran_election

 

[Hot Mega]

Powerful Iranian cleric says country in crisis

By ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press Writer – 15 mins ago
TEHRAN, Iran – In a sign of endurance for Iran's protest movement, demonstrators clashed with police Friday as one of the nation's most powerful clerics challenged the supreme leader during Muslim prayers, saying country was in crisis in the wake of a disputed election.

The turnout of tens of thousands of worshippers for former President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani's sermon at Tehran University and the battles with police outside represented the biggest opposition show of strength in weeks. Protesters faced fierce government suppression and hundreds were arrested following the disputed June 12 presidential election.

Outside the university, protests grew from several hundred before the sermon to thousands afterward as worshippers joined in, chanting, "death to the dictator," a reference to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Protesters were confronted by riot police and a menacing line of pro-government Basiji militiamen on motorcycles, who charged with batons. Plainclothes Basijis fired volleys of tear gas, and young protesters with green bandanas over their faces kicked the canisters across the pavement. Some set a bonfire in the street and waved their hands in victory signs. Dozens were arrested, taken away in trucks, witnesses said.

Protests, which flared following the election, had been stifled in recent weeks. The sometimes tearful sermon by Rafsanjani could be a significant boost to the movement's staying power. It was an open challenge to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, aired live on nationwide radio from one of the country's most potent political stages. By openly showing the divisions in the leadership, it punched a hole in efforts by Khamenei and hard-line clerics to end the controversy over Ahmadinejad's re-election.

Worshippers chanted "azadi, azadi," Persian for "freedom," during Rafsanjani's sermon, his first since the election. Opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi, who claims to have won the election, sat among the worshippers, attending the country's main prayer service for the first time since the turmoil began.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_iran_election

 

[Hot Mega]

Iran election dispute escalates to new phase

Reuters – Former president Mohammad Khatami arrives to vote during the Iranian presidential election in northern …
By ALI AKBAR DAREINI and LEE KEATH, Associated Press Writers – Mon Jul 20, 5:31 pm ET
TEHRAN, Iran – Iran's election dispute has moved beyond the drama of mass street protests to a new phase: a fight for power within the ruling religious establishment itself.

The conflict escalated as the country's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, backed by hard-line clerics and the Revolutionary Guard, issued a warning to the opposition in general and powerful cleric Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani in particular.

"The elite should be watchful, since they have been faced with a big test. Failing the test will cause their collapse," Khamenei said Monday in a speech marking a religious holiday. "Anybody who drives the society toward insecurity and disorder is a hated person in the view of the Iranian nation, whoever he is."

The opposition was emboldened when Rafsanjani stepped into the fray with a Friday prayer sermon that sharply criticized the leadership's handling of the postelection crisis. He has re-ignited the opposition, emerging as its leading patron.

"You are facing something new: an awakened nation, a nation that has been born again and is here to defend its achievements," opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi said Monday in comments that appeared pointed directly at Khamenei, in a tone rarely used toward the supreme leader.

(continued in link)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090720/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election

 

[Hot Mega]

Iran president defies supreme leader over deputy

By ALI AKBAR DAREINI and LEE KEATH, Associated Press Writers – 1 hr 4 mins ago
TEHRAN, Iran – President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad showed rare defiance of his strongest backer, Iran's supreme leader, by insisting on his choice for vice president Wednesday despite vehement opposition from hard-liners that has opened a deep rift in the conservative leadership.

The tussle over the appointment comes at a time when the clerical leadership is facing its strongest challenge in decades following last month's disputed presidential election.

Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei's top concern appears to be keeping the strong support of clerical hard-liners so he can withstand attempts by the more moderate, pro-reform opposition to erode his authority.

Conservative clerics and politicians have denounced Ahmadinejad's choice for the post of first vice president, Esfandiar Rahim Mashai, because Mashai said last year that Iranians are friends with Israelis. There are also concerns because Mashai is a relative of Ahmadinejad — his daughter is married to the president's son.

Khamenei ordered Ahmadinejad to remove Mashai, semiofficial media reported Wednesday.

(continued on link)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090722/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_politics

 

[Friday on my mind]

I went looking for a link to a proverb I heard once was popular in Iran and found this which references the recent Iranian claims of US/British interference in their internal affairs.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/21544

"Britain has often been a convenient scapegoat for Iranian leaders when things go wrong at home. According to a Persian proverb, if you trip over a pebble you can be sure it was put there by an Englishman. "


All depends on POV I guess.:dunno:

 

[BlueBalls]

I went looking for a link to a proverb I heard once was popular in Iran and found this which references the recent Iranian claims of US/British interference in their internal affairs.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/21544

"Britain has often been a convenient scapegoat for Iranian leaders when things go wrong at home. According to a Persian proverb, if you trip over a pebble you can be sure it was put there by an Englishman. "


All depends on POV I guess.:dunno:

From the article:

Many Iranians still see Britain as a scheming “little Satan” that pulls the strings of the “Great Satan”, America, which is viewed as a superpower with more brawn but less brain than its “duplicitous” ally.

With Gordon Brown in charge, are you kidding me? :rofl:

 

[Hot Mega]

Iran opposition leader's brother-in-law arrested

By NASSER KARIMI and LEE KEATH, Associated Press Writers – 2 hrs 47 mins ago
TEHRAN, Iran –
The wife of opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi said Thursday that her 62-year-old brother is among the hundreds arrested in Iran's postelection crackdown, as Mousavi warned that the country is becoming "more militarized" amid the turmoil.

Mousavi implicitly accused the security forces of exceeding their powers under Iran's constitution, suggesting that the "near-coup d'etat atmosphere" was a danger to Iran's Islamic Republic.

(continued in link)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election

 

[Nester6]

The situation in Iran is sad, but not very optimistic. They have a gov't controlled by religion. And there's the old Libertarian Maxim --he who has the guns, makes the rules.

I think Obama's initial cautious approach was sound. I think his latter "tough talk" approach was just a bone to appease the chickenhawk republicans. If the chickenhawks had their way, we'd parachute troops into Tehran...exactly how many wars do the chickenhawks want to fight simultaneously? And, of course, never pay for any of them....

You do not tip toe into war to test the waters. You either jump in or stay out and once you decide,your comitted to be successful. This is what the Us did. We can't have wishy washy leaders. That is pure weakness and leads to one's being vulnerable.

 

[Hot Mega]

You do not tip toe into war to test the waters. You either jump in or stay out and once you decide,your comitted to be successful. This is what the Us did. We can't have wishy washy leaders. That is pure weakness and leads to one's being vulnerable.

Well, for my money you don't "jump" into war. If you are attacked or face an imminent threat, you are already at a war not of your choosing and you defend with offense. However, if you're in a position of engaging in the extraordinarily unprecedented policy of taking the first strike on a sovereign nation...the last thing you want is a person in charge who believes you "jump" into that. I think we should have all learned the clear lesson of what can happen when you do.

But if by "jump in" you're suggesting we commit whole-heartedly the resources necessary to effect an outcome most favorable to our security..no sir. Er, that's exactly what we didn't under Bush with respect to Iraq and Afghanistan. It can't be particularly comfortable under that rock which is where you would had to have been living to come away with the impression you're expressing.

Bush and co. deliberated how they would proceed BUT went against all knowledgeable advice (e.g. Shinseki, Powell, etc.) on the amount of personnel necessary to not only defeat Iraq's standing military but stabilized the aftermath and effect transition. The didn't "jump" in and commit. Instead, they chose to invade with the bare minimum, could not stabilize the aftermath which negatively affected a successful transition and ultimately cost and is costing more lives.

After invading Afghanistan, Bush and co. by many accounts shifted their sights to Iraq...troops levels in Afghanistan dwindled, the enemy re-fortified, operated freely back and forth cross-border and as a result the effort nearly teeters in the balance.

In the end for all of Bush's tough talk, he and his state dept. were reduced to running around the world begging for help with the two wars he so miserably mismanaged.

If that isn't pure weakness which leads to one being vulnerable I don't know what is..:wave2:

 

[Hot Mega]

Tehran Braces for Street Battles at March for Neda

Life in the capital of Iran seems eerily normal on the eve of what will likely be one of the larger demonstrations in recent weeks. Indeed, many fear it may be the bloodiest of all. But as the city waits, punk skateboarders show off their moves to the thump-thump of French electro at Enqelab Sports Complex. Groups of women in chadors amble by the fragrant booths of spice dealers at the city's famed Grand Bazaar. Young couples lounge in a coffee shop at Haft e-Tir, the epicenter of a quashed protest just last week.

Indeed, although tens of thousands of people are expected to march in silence on July 30, on the religiously important 40-day anniversary of the death of Neda Agha-Soltan, a young protester whose last moments were captured on video, many more will be staying home. "It's going to get brutal," says an opposition adviser who claims to have spoken to top commanders of the Revolutionary Guards. The Guards, together with the paramilitary Basij force, has arrested thousands and killed possibly more than a hundred protesters since the disputed June 12 presidential election. "[Security forces] will be waiting for them," he says.

(continued in link)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090730/wl_time/08599191338500