Something for those who embrace the title "fiscal conservative":
http://www.lafn.org/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart.html
:hatsoff:
http://www.lafn.org/gvdc/Natl_Debt_Chart.html
:hatsoff:
Increases in the National Debt, By Presidency (Chart w/ Explanation)
- Thread starter Facial_King
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The prosperity during the Clinton years was largely due to the "tech boom," which had nothing to do with politics. I fear to see the numbers under Obama. I'm sure he'll break all of the records.
I'll tell you the truth. For me, I don't think that this number is the be-all, end-all of much of anything.
But apparently many "fiscal conservatives" (and that's not just most Republicans and teabaggers, but plenty of Dems, too) do, and are always going on about how the debt's out of control. If I had a dime for everytime some conservative or right-winger was on one of the news talk shows saying this (and usually recommending some Republican as the solution to the problem), I'd be rich enough to pay down the debt personally, right now.
nearlyinvisible's comment is entirely predictable and typical, too, as a response. The gist is that Republicans always have an excuse for being there when it goes up, but when it goes down under a Dem, it's not to their credit, either. Apparently presidents can't have an effect on it anyway, so who cares???
Reminds me of certain Christians who credit God with all of their successes and take the blame for all their failures.
But apparently many "fiscal conservatives" (and that's not just most Republicans and teabaggers, but plenty of Dems, too) do, and are always going on about how the debt's out of control. If I had a dime for everytime some conservative or right-winger was on one of the news talk shows saying this (and usually recommending some Republican as the solution to the problem), I'd be rich enough to pay down the debt personally, right now.
nearlyinvisible's comment is entirely predictable and typical, too, as a response. The gist is that Republicans always have an excuse for being there when it goes up, but when it goes down under a Dem, it's not to their credit, either. Apparently presidents can't have an effect on it anyway, so who cares???
Reminds me of certain Christians who credit God with all of their successes and take the blame for all their failures.
I'm not a Republican. I was a big fan of Clinton's presidency. Obama not so much.
In fairness, Democrats controlled Congress until '1994 and the chart doesn't take inflation into account...which is kind of snake eats tail since inflation and debt are related. I'm glad that you added that caveat, "the numbers aren't be-all end-all". But yes, the myth that Ronald Reagan was a fiscal Conservative is a complete farce. So are the myths that he lowered taxes and spending (as addressed) and was pro-2nd Amendment.
Republicans seemed to have turned Reagan into what they want to embody...the same way different types of Christian portray Jesus according to their philosophical ideals. He has become whatever you make him into.
Stop confusing people with facts!
Supafly
Retired Mod
You are telling me inflation drove a debt of $ 133 billion in 2001 to $ 1017 billion in 2008?
Oh dear, don't watch no more Fox Channels :dunno:
A big part of President Reagan's defecit spending was due to military spending. This proved to be an excellent investment, as he won the Cold War.
As for taxes, are you really going to try and say he didn't lower taxes?
People can hate Reagan all they want, but just beause you say it didn't happen, it doesn't change history. Facts are facts. Reagan was without a doubt the best president this country has had since Abraham Lincoln.
StanScratch
My Penis Is Dancing!
Yeah, I know. By that logic, we would be paying 10 bucks for a gallon of gas and 12 bucks for a loaf of bread, not alone the 50 dollar movie tickets.
Regardless of blame amongst the two major (and corrupt) parties in the US, look at the trends not only here but in Europe. The Western "progressive/socialist" way of thinking is failing and the mounting debt if not brought under control will cause the collapse of Western society as we know it... the warning signs are everywhere, from Greece to Italy to the US and UK. The answer for 70 years to every problem has been for governments to create new programs and spend more money... they have mostly failed, and we have the same problems now as before, plus so much debt that the entire world economy is teetering on the brink of collapse, not to mention creating many generations of people who are basically slaves to the states they rely on for sustenance, and governments with nearly unlimited power over their "citizens."
Good job humanity. We fought several wars to free mankind from tyranny, only to deliver us back to it by voluntary choices of promised (and illusionary) security over our rights and freedoms.
Good job humanity. We fought several wars to free mankind from tyranny, only to deliver us back to it by voluntary choices of promised (and illusionary) security over our rights and freedoms.
What the fuck are you talking about? Fox News Channel? Did I say any of that? No, I said inflation needs to be taking into account along with the fact that both Reagan and Bush were in office along with a Democrat controlled Congress. If you want an accurate picture, that is.
I didn't say Republican spending wasn't dramatic or reckless...I even pointed out the Reagan myths.
A house in NY that costs $15,000 when my parents were young now costs $300,000. Yet it'd be ridiculous to ignore inflation and say that prices under Obama's presidency are 20 times times higher than what they were when we had a good Republican president in office and decided not to mention that said Republican was Eisenhower. When we have the ridiculous fiat dollar that we do, inflation is a pretty significant aspect when we talk debt and economics, no?
Yeah, by that logic. That logic which I never implied.
Yes, I am going to really try and say that Ronald Reagan didn't lower taxes. Why? Because he raised them. Over and over again. And so did George HW Bush.
http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/02/ba...-taxes-opinions-contributors-rob-shapiro.html
And for the record, Reagan didn't win the Cold War, I don't hate Ronald Reagan and Abraham Lincoln was a shitty president.
The End.
*Bush as in George HW Bush. I don't think even the most die hard GOPer would defend W's spending in hindsight.
Rey C.
Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Excellent summation. And yes, I think there is a sort of religious parallel.
In their zeal to turn him into a god, many of the kool-aid drinkers often gloss over many of the facts of Reagan's two terms: signed an illegal immigrant amnesty bill into law (Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986), signed the (so called) Firearms Owners' Protection Act of 1986 and later supported the Brady Bill once he'd left office, allowed S&L's (2/3 of which were already losing money) to make no downpayment mortgages, nationalized the Continental Illinois National Bank and Trust Company and took us from being the biggest creditor nation in the world to the biggest debtor nation in the world. That's not to tear him down. Those are just facts.
I liked Reagan. IMO, he was the right kind of (charismatic) leader for a nation that was losing faith in itself. I was schooled in supply side economics and still believe in its merits, when properly applied. But too many latch onto the Cliff Notes version of his presidency and then revise history to justify their deification of him. He was not a god. He was not without fault. And there have been more than a few pieces written recently which question whether or not he would even be welcome in the modern GOP. Some argue that he would most likely be called a RINO and chased away by the wingnuts. I mean we're talking about a guy who would argue his points against the Democrats by day and then have a drink with Tip O'Neill at the end of the day. These days you're not supposed to even speak to "the enemy", much less be friendly. No, Reagan didn't base his existence purely on hyperbole, and not much else. So chances are the Tea Parties and the various other radical right groups wouldn't welcome him with open arms if he was to make a second coming (under a different name).
PlasmaTwa2
The Second-Hottest Man in my Mother's Basement
Just like I thought; Reagan ruined it for everyone.
Rey C.
Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
I've seen nothing in this thread that has to do with hating Reagan. We're back to the hyperbole again, I see. Being critical of someone does not equate to hating them.
As for facts, to say that he was the best President since Lincoln is not a fact. It's simply an opinion.
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