How does the West win the 'War on ******'?

[Synthmesc_Droog]

this isn't a war on ******...it is just a quagmire of flash points where everyone is on high alert...

damn terrorists...dont they realise that we want to be left alone so we can simply fly to holiday spots and see our friends and catch trains and live normal lives in peace?

see thats interesting. i havnt followed this thread, and i wont begin to pretend i know the first thing about American foreign policy or the American political climate. but one thing i can say, what aegean just said is EXACTLY what those extremists feel. They see "the west" as a threat to their culture. past American and Coalition campaigns have basically perpetuated the culture of war in such countries as afghanistan and iraq by fuelling their conflicts thus destabilising their society only greater. **** in some countries grow up knowing nothing BUT war. not to say that the entire population is bloodlusting fanatics. but with their economies in such a fragile state they see "the west" as interferring with their heritage and cultural identity. America takes too much interest in what other countries do and cant do. i believe its the Americanisation and Westernisation of such countries that provoke the hostilities thus inevitably leading to acts of terrorism against "the west". thats my :2 cents:. love me, **** me, i dont care..

 

[Iamforever]

but one thing i can say, what aegean just said is EXACTLY what those extremists feel. They see "the west" as a threat to their culture.

okay, but we are not the ones shoving our culture down their throats. we are not trying to change them. we are tryin to stop them. its an unwinable war, but still. they are the ones spreading their culture on us ***********. nothing but hypocracy. i got one word for you---dubai.

 

[Synthmesc_Droog]

i didnt say any of you were. its the coca-cola, the mcdonalds and nike taking over their countries. the Multi National Corporations are the ***** sucking vampires. not the governments. the governments only take action because they feel they have to. and in most instances they probably do. im getting a migrane...

oh, and i also blame the Illuminati. yeah. lol

 

[Iamforever]

i didnt say any of you were. its the coca-cola, the mcdonalds and nike taking over their countries. the Multi National Corporations are the ***** sucking vampires. not the governments. the governments only take action because they feel they have to. and in most instances they probably do. im getting a migrane...

yeah! blame the states for this too. remember, its the country and their government letting the corporations in. they can nix it anytime they want too.

 

[serpentor]

I think Goerge bush has deceided to use the old saying "if you can't beat 'em join 'em"

 

[Samwise]

The US need to back down and let that water car finally happen! That'll solve your war problem! It's all about that damn oil... The fuckin' greed for control, and money... ****** has little influence in all these things!! Trust me, I come from Serbia(US bombed us in '99, remember?) And yet, I'm sorry because you're boys get ****** every day in Iraq! Damn shame..... THE WATER CAR, FUCK THE OIL!!!!!!

 

[georges]

Wow... for the first time I can say you're actually, literally, way off imo.

(1) Lots of Americans criticize Islam as a whole. I hear it every day. It's everywhere you look. It happens in church, school, on TV, and on this board.

(2) You're saying many Arab states tell their people to **** those with different viewpoints? This is absolute fabrication. Please tell me the names of these many Arab states that wilfully incite **** of other nations, and please give me some example. Or, tell me how those examples are different from the smokescreens created by Bush and Blair to cause us to not ****, but mortally fear, those with different viewpoints (like your fear of socialism for example) - and fear only leads to... ****.

(3) The West is guilty of atrocities now, not in the past. Now. Look at where our militaries are. In the eyes of the Arab world, occupation, particularly without the blessing of the only remnants of a world government we have left (you call it a joke, I call it the UN)... is an atrocity. I agree with the Arab world on this one.

(4) Look at where so much western oil comes from, how can you say we used it as a basin of resources in the past? It still is.

(5) It has little to do with Islam today, but everything to do with ILL FEELING TOWARD THE WEST today. Islam is used as a tool, but our own actions, not just in the past but right now, are a cause of the direct consequence of ill feeling.

(6) States raise people into believing what they want. That, in a nutshell, is what the American system does. The pledge of allegience. Patriotism. Why does everyone get mad if you criticize the military? I can do that in any European country and half the people will agree with me. Do that here, and it's, HEY, THOSE MEN ARE DYING FOR YOU BASTARD, well... er... weird how everyone parrots the same thing with the same stars and stripes shining in their eyes. Just a coincidence, I'm sure. Not inspired by the state. Surely not. ****** Russia, anyone?

(7) Finally, if terrorism is ******* religion, which it is... then what about this:

this is god's country. God is on our side. When we go and invade... cough... help these Arabs, God is with us. God bless America. Our soldiers are in heaven now because they died serving god's country. You hear things like this all the time, especially in church. WAR AND RELIGION ARE INCOMPATIBLE. Nowhere in Christianity does it sanction what we are doing. Nowhere in Christianity does it mention America. We, as much as anyone else in the world, are ******* religion.

That is EXACTLY what our opposition says. There is no difference between us and them. They want to get on with their lives, we want to get on with ours. Replace "damn terrorists" with "damn western leaders and armies". Maybe replace the flying to holiday spots because they can't afford that, but live their daily lives, yes.

YES, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

It's not about we and them. Don't believe the hype. They're just like you. They don't all feel the same, neither do "we". And there's very little difference between we and them. Don't believe the damn hype, trust me on this. Go live there for a few months and you will take back every word. You will come back and say GUYS, WE NEED TO GET OUR SOLDIERS OUT OF THERE, WE WERE SO WRONG... and no-one - I repeat no-one - is trying to spread their culture on the west. No-one. Western culture welcomes all culture. So are we saying we welcome all culture except their culture, now? And you won't find Arabs screaming, stop spreading your culture! You will find Arabs screaming, LEAVE US ALONE AND GET YOUR SOLDIERS OFF OUR STREETS YOU OPPRESSORS. And they are, right, on this.

Blame the States because the States has military bases all over the world and controls more of this planet than you can imagine. Everyone knows it, and the US makes no secret about it. If you have your fingers in every pie, then you are partly to blame for what is wrong with all those pies. Everyone else's wealth is being diverted into our nation and other western nations, we have set up a global economy that ensures this disparity keeps perpetuating itself, and we have stacked the deck of economics in our favour to a ridiculous extent.

Fox

Prof Voluptuary is not off, he has far much knowledge when it comes to politics than you. It is not only in America than Islam is criticized but in many European countries as well as because there is a severe ************* from muslims to fully abide and respect european traditions. France forbid the tchador at school and it is justified. If you can't deal with the rules and habits in the country where you migrated then perhaps you should come back to your native country. Unfortunately as it has been shown in the past you can't deal with reality.
Yet again look at who elected Palestinian and look at who back up Libanese people? They are backing up terrorist groups and don't try to pass them for honest politicians. Iran, Palestine, Syria, Yemen, Libya and Liban.If socialism was taht great it would have been used by many countries but unfortunately it has done nothing positive wether it was in France, in Germany or even in Canada. You are the one who said you would like to go live in Cuba despite there is a communistic that says a lot about you.
Because Saddam hasn't made atrocities and because groups like the hamas, teh fatah, al aksah martyr brigades haven't been responsible of atrocities stop blaming the west for everything. If many arab governements are managed like **** it is because their leaders are thinking like in the middle age or not rationally.
If muslims could integrate themselves so well and respect customs, habits and rules in the countries where they migrated in there won't be a single problem. Fact is that it is not happening.
As I said before supporting you troops is a part of the duty of every citizen, something you don't do and that is why I find you very unamerican.
What was the religion of terrorist who provoked the 9/11 attacks? I don't think you need me to remind it to you. Perhaps you prefer Iraq to be leaded by a second Saddam or an Amadineheijad clone? Not me. It is better to have USA bases worldwide than to have benladenists and islamic religious terrorists worldwide.

just my :2 cents:

regards

georges.

 

[Neromak]

You cannot win a "war on ******", tough as that fact may be to swallow. The best that can be done is a sit down and negotiate a peace.

I know it's hard to even think of that but where have we (the west) gotten with our current plans? And likewise where have they (extremists) gotten with theirs?
It's also tough to negotiate with extremists who's very thoughts center on the destruction of anyone who isn't "in their club".

I for one don't want the world thrown back 1,000 years with a new crusade.
It didn't work then it's not going to work now.

Christianity and Islam have been bashing up against eachother for thousands of years, this is just a new chapter in an old story.

I take people one at a time whatever they believe. If you don't have a problem with me then I don't have a problem with you.

That's about as simple as I can make it.

 

[tartanterrier]

Never.

This will be a no - goer until Israel is giving back to the Palestinian's.But why should the Israelis want to,as there have been generations of Jews living there now.For as long as this continues there will always be a "War on ******"

I think that places like Iraq and Afganistan will get sorted eventually but there'll need to be a hell of a lot more dying before this will be achieved.If the West can prove to the Arab states that what they are doing is good for the Arabs then I think this will be the West's main weapon for winning the "War on ******".

The West won't gain many friends by starting wars for personal gain (ie Oil and fow what Bush Snr failed to tie up).

The war in Iraq for me was a mistake.I think they should have taken care of Afganistan and Bin Laden way before thinking about toppling Saddam Hussain.Although he deserves whats coming to him.

But hey. That's what politics is all about

 

[Member2019]

Actually, we Americans do push our culture ...

okay, but we are not the ones shoving our culture down their throats.

Actually, we Americans do push our culture.

Some of its direct. The American doctrine -- of every administration -- is that a country that cannot control itself is a candidate for rule by and for its people. Different American administrations have implemented that differently, but that's the general attitude. The concept of "exporting Democracy" is not new with W., but he's the one that's pushed it the most since LBJ/Nixon.

Some of it is indirect, but capitalism in a free society tends to do what it wants. Our government can't control capitalism any more than its media, but that's actually a good thing, despite what it creates.

 

[Member2019]

Extremities ...

(1) Lots of Americans criticize Islam as a whole. I hear it every day. It's everywhere you look. It happens in church, school, on TV, and on this board.

Churches are religion, so it happens. But churches are not state sponsored. That was my point.

American TV is the greatest representation of gross American ignorance. Ignore it. It does not represent anything remotely like the majority.

As far as school, I don't know what to tell you. That is state sponsored, so if the faculty is pushing hatred of those of Islamic faith, they should be terminated. Now if you mean ignorance students, that's a different story. They have the same problem as American TV. In fact, they grew up with it and eventually outgrow it.

(2) You're saying many Arab states tell their people to **** those with different viewpoints? This is absolute fabrication.

You will never come to the US and see a poster telling you to **** those of Islamic faith, or someone on the radio or TV saying such as you will in select, other nations -- let alone our media is not state-run. The extremity difference is unbelievable, especially given the fact that most Arab media is state-run.

(4) Look at where so much western oil comes from, how can you say we used it as a basin of resources in the past? It still is.

I agreed with you (you miss-read me). I said the past century (as in last 100 years), which does include now.

(5) It has little to do with Islam today, but everything to do with ILL FEELING TOWARD THE WEST today. Islam is used as a tool, but our own actions, not just in the past but right now, are a cause of the direct consequence of ill feeling.

When you have states that do not tolerate any practice of religion other than Islam and either puts people to death or in jail for practicing any other religion or just looks the other way when those of other faiths are ******, that's a huge difference. In the US, if you are of Islamic faith, you don't have to worry or fear for your life -- let alone if someone actually did take your life, the state would prosecute those who were guilty without prejudice.

(6) States raise people into believing what they want. That, in a nutshell, is what the American system does. The pledge of allegience. Patriotism.

By individual choice. That's how the US differs from just about every other nation (including western).[/b] The US Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled you have no obligation to cite the pledge or anything else -- unless you are taking an oath of service or other, privileged entry. Same deal with your right to burn the flag.

Why does everyone get mad if you criticize the military? I can do that in any European country and half the people will agree with me.

Those are individual Americans who decide, not the American government. The US, unlike the majority of other nations, has an all-volunteer military. And there is the history of Vietnam that no American will ever repeat -- where soldiers were spit on and chastized for merely being drafted.

Do that here, and it's, HEY, THOSE MEN ARE DYING FOR YOU BASTARD, well... er... weird how everyone parrots the same thing with the same stars and stripes shining in their eyes. Just a coincidence, I'm sure. Not inspired by the state. Surely not. ****** Russia, anyone?

Again, you had to be here during Vietnam. Criticize the President. Criticize soldiers who **** innocent civilians. I surely am in the case of that **** and ****** of an innocent Iraqi ******.

But if you criticize the American soldier in general, you will find yourself at odds with 99% of Americans. That's not the US government sponsoring hatred. That is the American who remembers how Vietnam veterans were treated -- how no soldier should ever be treated.

(7) Finally, if terrorism is ******* religion, which it is... then what about this:
this is god's country. God is on our side. When we go and invade... cough... help these Arabs, God is with us. God bless America. Our soldiers are in heaven now because they died serving god's country. You hear things like this all the time, especially in church. WAR AND RELIGION ARE INCOMPATIBLE. Nowhere in Christianity does it sanction what we are doing. Nowhere in Christianity does it mention America. We, as much as anyone else in the world, are ******* religion.

God did not tell us to go into Iraq. God did not cause the US to somehow cause Iraq to invade Kuwait, then lose a war and agree to terms of surrender they never lived up to. God does not make decisions of this nation, and it never will.

I don't disagree we have plundered many resources of this world. I don't disagree that we display great arrogance by projecting a world-wide Navy and Marine Corps that can strike and invade anywhere in 12-48 hours. I don't disagree that the US has an agenda that services its own interests far too much.

But Americans are the first to admit it. After all, everyone blames us for just about everything that happens in the world, instead of looking at themselves. God forbid other nations hold themselves up to the same standard.

 

[Member2019]

Oh yes, the US is at fault for the Balkans ...

The US need to back down and let that water car finally happen! That'll solve your war problem! It's all about that damn oil...

Actually, the US is securing oil reserves for more than just itself. But I agree, it's our main issue. But until our power infrastructure is renovated, we can't have any significant hydrogen/fuel-cell vehicles. Electrolysis requires energy.

Trust me, I come from Serbia(US bombed us in '99, remember?)

Yes, I remember the genocide that was going on. That those of Christian faith were largely exterminating those of Islamic faith. And the US intervened to stop it.

Because the US is a nation of 10 million people of Islamic faith, and we respect their faith. If we didn't, we'd be chastized for letting the genocide continue. We'd be chastized for allowing Christians to exterminate those of Islamic faith.

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. We didn't create the Balkans. We didn't setup all these stupid little boundaries. We didn't introduce communism into our country. But the US always gets the blame for it all.

And yet, I'm sorry because you're boys get ****** every day in Iraq! Damn shame.....

Is that sarcasm?

THE WATER CAR, FUCK THE OIL!!!!!!

I'd love too, but too many fucking stupid idiots are fighting us engineers and keeping us from getting the R&D we need to make the US power system cleaner. I just hope you're not one of them.

 

[satyrsam]

They would need to start fighting the war on ******. They have not captured or attact a direct treat to the us yet. Iran, Korea, China.

 

[Peter Gazinya]

Prof Voluptary, you speak a truth of which I could only wish to so eloquently express. Your posts to this board are invaluable and truly an informative pleasure to read. Thank you for you objective, fact based style of writing.

PG.

 

[georges]

Prof Voluptary, you speak a truth of which I could only wish to so eloquently express. Your posts to this board are invaluable and truly an informative pleasure to read. Thank you for you objective, fact based style of writing.

PG.

I couldn't agree more with you. You and prof enjoy the rep that is very well and fully desserved

 

[Baal]

Re: So few criticize Islam ...

So few Americans criticize Islam. The overwhelming majority of Americans believe it has everything to do with ******* Islam to justify actions.

Most Americans also realize the difference is that our state does not tell us to **** those of Arab decent, those of Islamic faith, those of a difference of viewpoint. I cannot say the same for many Arab states.

Yes, the west has been guilty of many atrocities in the past, and of using the Middle East as a basin of natural resources in the past century. I don't deny that. But that has little to do with Islam today, but how states raise their people into believing what they want.

And how they ***** a religion to do so.

It has everything to do with islam today... ( BTW We could start by pronouncing Iran and Iraq correctly - it may not mean a lot to you but it means a lot over there.) Islamic fundamentalism grew out of the only place people were allowed to gather under these authoritarian regimes...the mosque - they would have been there in the first place otherwise. All those regimes, well most of them, are on our payroll and thats where the problems start...bin laden was a saudi not a syrian...

 

[Torre82]

How does the west win the war? Clone John Wayne and dont ANYONE tell him his real name, ever.

 

[Baal]

They, and we, are wrong to blame our governments, I think. The ***** is on our hands, not the hands of our leaders. We put them there. And as this thread shows, our intelligent minds are misused and misled and all too eager to work feverishly to find ways and assemble "facts" and analyze data and support the lies with statistics... to make us feel like we are okay. To make us feel like we are doing the right thing. To make us feel like our modern day colonization and totalitarianism and ultra exploitation are somehow... how laughable, how depressingly ironic... justified? Lawful? Humane? We are monsters. We control the monsters that terrorize the world - I think that makes us worse than monsters. We will carry this weight until we die and it looks like we're doing it with an ear to ear smile and two thumbs in the air.

Pos rep each other and pat each other on the back and clink glasses and high five and meanwhile they die, they die, they die. Believe the lies. It's easier.

When the power of love :lovecoupl overcomes the love of power:fight: - there will be peace :angels: - Jimi Hendrix...

Keep the faith fox - we'll all come around in the end

 

[Iamforever]

Or we'll all die trying

I'm okay with that, as long as we are actually trying. I just see so many people that seem to prefer to close their eyes/believe the lies than to try.

do you know why fox? its not that we dont care. its that we (maybe im alone in this) have bigger things to worry about. i dont know about you or anyone else, but i will care for my ****** every day of the week rather than worrying about a war. when it comes down to my ****** or some person in iraq, guess who im going to give my time and energy to.

 

[KungFuDude]

Iran, Syria, Iraq = New Axis of Evil?

Congratulations Iran! You've won! The civil war has begun.. ...bastards.

What have we done? More to the point, what have you done Mr. President? Thanks for handing our mortal enemies Iraq on a silver platter. Great job!!! :thumbsup: