the only one is this list that compares to robby is morgan. i personally like biggio, but robby he is not.
Lets break this down using some advanced statistics. These are all balanced and translated for era, ballpark, and competition. (These come from baseball prospectus)
OBP = On base percentage
SLG = Slugging percentage
EQA =Equivalent Average. A measure of total offensive value per out, with corrections for league offensive level, home park, and team pitching. EQA considers batting as well as base running, but not the value of a position player's defense. The EqA adjusted for all-time also has a correction for league difficulty. The scale is deliberately set to approximate that of batting average. League average EqA is always equal to .260. EqA is derived from Raw EqA, which is (H + TB + 1.5*(BB + HBP + SB) + SH + SF) divided by (AB + BB + HBP + SH + SF + CS + SB). REqA is then normalized to account for league difficulty and scale to create EqA. (basically this is a number that tells how good the player was absent defensive consideration and adjust it so it looks like a number similar to Batting average so you don't have to compare huge numbers)
EQR = Equivalent Runs; EQR = 5 * OUT * EQA^2.5. In the fielding charts, the estimated number of EqR he had at the plate while playing this position in the field. In Adjusted Standings, EqR refers to the total number of equivalent runs scored by the team.
FRAR =Fielding Runs Above Replacement. The difference between an average player and a replacement player is determined by the number of plays that position is called on to make. That makes the value at each position variable over time. In the all-time adjustments, an average catcher is set to 39 runs above replacement per 162 games, first base to 10, second to 29, third to 22, short to 33, center field to 24, left and right to 14. (I only went by the runs they stopped at the position that is considered)
WARP-3 (Wins above replacement player) basically it's the wins that player has contributed over what a replacement player would do if they had to go out and get somebody on free agency at the very bottom of the skill level. This version is the third refinement, hence the 3 in it, takes account things like the use of a DH and normalization it over 162 games.
For their careers
Joe Morgan
OBP =.407, SLG =.495, Eqa =.310, Eqr =1811, FRAR =555, WARP-3 =168
Roberto Alomar
OBP =.382, SLG =.474, Eqa =.295, Eqr =1538, FRAR =399, WARP-3 =131.7
Craig Biggio
OBP =.374, SLG =.459, Eqa =.288, Eqr =1675, FRAR =254, WARP-3 =123.5
Eddie Collins
OBP = .419, SLG=.498, Eqa =.308, Eqr =2061, FRAR =917, WARP-3 =178
Rodgers Hornsby
OBP =.408, SLG =.634, Eqa =.331, Eqr =1883, FRAR =461, WARP-3 =163.5
*** Lajoie
OBP =.369, SLG =.563, Eqa =.304, Eqr =1873, FRAR =886, WARP-3 =167.3
Ryne Sandberg
OBP =.346, SLG =.488, Eqa =.282, Eqr =1286, FRAR =490, WARP-3 =112.9
The only people Alomar is close to is Biggio and while he looks slightly better Biggio's numbers have gone down on some of those because he has been basically playing washed up for the last couple years lowering some of his averages. Other than that they are almost equal. I give Biggio extra credit for things like almost never grounding into a double play and other things that push him ahead of Alomar, plus more of his OBP is locked up in walks that are more stable than getting a high OBP of batting average. I will grudgingly admit after more consideration that Alomar is better than Sandberg with a good level of certainly so you have me there.
iamforever said:
maybe you didnt see the wizard play.
also, if you mention rodriguez and ripken, where is visquel? visquel runs circles around ripken and arod at shortstop.
Honus Wagner
OBP =.384, SLG =.572, Eqa = .308, Eqr =2009, FRAR =828, WARP-3 =194.6
Alex Rodriguez
OBP =.391, SLG =.592, Eqa = .320, Eqr =1345, FRAR =245, WARP-3 =130.1
Derek Jeter
OBP =.399, SLG =.485, Eqa = .303, Eqr =1149, FRAR =137, WARP-3 =91.8
Arky Vaughan
OBP =.409, SLG =.518, Eqa = .312, Eqr =1290, FRAR =507, WARP-3 =131.2
Cal Ripken
OBP =.352, SLG =.451, Eqa = .283, Eqr =1767, FRAR =512, WARP-3 =169.1
Robin Yount
OBP =.358, SLG =.454, Eqa = .285, Eqr =1718, FRAR =290, WARP-3 =136.8
Ernie Banks
OBP =.336, SLG =.539, Eqa = .287, Eqr =1541, FRAR =282, WARP-3 =127.4
Ozzie Smith
OBP =.355, SLG =.365, Eqa = .262, Eqr =1266, FRAR =788, WARP-3 =139.3
I might put Ozzie around the value of Banks and Yount, but you have to realize that Ozzie was good at defense and uhh...that's about it. Rodriguez and Jeter have yet to finish their careers. If you took Wagner's years up to the age Rodriguez is now he would look better. Again the last few years dropped some of the stats on him. It also shows you why he was so good he had defensive capability comparable or better than Ozzie and offensive capability at the level or better than Rodriguez in a era where SS that could hit well were absolutely unheard of thus the huge WARP number. I **** to say this but even at an important defensive position like this defense isn't as important as offense. If it were, Jeter would be one of the worse players of all time.
iamforever said:
how many gold gloves did brooks win? 16 i think. thats six teen. most players dont even last for 16 years.
Gold gloves are like the MPV award where they give it to the wrong guy half the time. They also have a tendency to give them to superstars. Lets just say he deserved most of them anyhow to save any argument.
Mike Schmidt
OBP =.382, SLG =.587, Eqa =.313, Eqr =1721, FRAR =486, WARP-3 =161.3
George Brett
OBP =.381, SLG =.545, Eqa =.306, Eqr =1875, FRAR =232, WARP-3 =138.7
Eddie Mathews
OBP =.393, SLG =.577, Eqa =.317, Eqr =1741, FRAR =236, WARP-3 =141.2
Wade Boggs
OBP =.428, SLG =.476, Eqa =.312, Eqr =1670, FRAR =335, WARP-3 =149.7
Home Run Baker
OBP =.350, SLG =.531, Eqa =.291, Eqr =1092, FRAR =353, WARP-3 =83.7
Ron Santo
OBP =.367, SLG =.505, Eqa =.293, Eqr =1371, FRAR =388, WARP-3 =116.7
Brooks Robinson
OBP =.336, SLG =.448, Eqa =.268, Eqr =1441, FRAR =609, WARP-3 =123.4
Besides defense Robinson looks like the weakest among them. He is sort of the third base version of Ozzie. His WARP number is helped by the fact he played so long.
Some of the people you listed would be that good if defense meant as much as offensive production in baseball to winning games, but it doesn't. That isn't to say it doesn't matter but I want the people that are going to make my team score the most points at the end of the game weather it's through making scores of our own or preventing the other team from doing it.
