German guesthouse tells Israelis there is no room at the inn

[meesterperfect]

Oh cool.
The topic has changed to "why we nuked Japan twice" again.

And now it's because we did it as a warning to Russia.
I don't think you really believe that.
But if it's true how sick would that be?
"Hey Harry, lets incinerate alive a few hundred thousand human beings just to make sure Russia stays cool, after all we already did it in Dresden, Hamburg and Danzig and that went pretty good".
"Well by golly thats the cats meow, lets do it".

It's against the rules of war to target civilian populated areas. Period.

 

[bodie54]

I didn't say that was the only reason.
Or even the primary one.
But it did also have that impact on Russia, which is the question you asked about.

 

[bodie54]

It's against the rules of war to target civilian populated areas. Period.

Tell that to the German Luftwaffe that bombed civilian areas in Great Britain...not to mention Poland, Ukraine, Russia, The Netherlands etc etc etc :dunno:

 

[tvstrip]

Why couldn't we have nuked Germany as well? There was no country or people more deserving.

NO country "deserves" to be nuked.
We've had worse leaders/governments (or at least, comparable) since WWII, and we haven't nuked a single one of them. MAD isn't the only reason that hasn't happened.

Nukes will always have collateral damage, immediate and long term. You can argue some people deserve to be killed, but no country deserves to be nuked.

The twin cities Ludwigshafen/Mannheim were designated as prime targets for the first A-bombs, had they been deployable by spring 1945.

You should read about how many A-bomb scientists, most notably Leo Szilard & Einstein himself strongly advocated against the use of the bomb on their home/residential country. They also protested Oppenheimer about using it on Japan, but their opposition against using it against Germany was much more solid.


Back on topic,
Do you think that if a German booked into an Israeli guesthouse with "certain" last names they'd be denied or their reservations "lost"?

 

[acenipplelicker]

this all be unfair fo sure

 

[sean miguel]

NO country "deserves" to be nuked.
We've had worse leaders/governments (or at least, comparable) since WWII, and we haven't nuked a single one of them. MAD isn't the only reason that hasn't happened.

Nukes will always have collateral damage, immediate and long term. You can argue some people deserve to be killed, but no country deserves to be nuked.

No, Japan pretty much deserved to be nuked. We were justified in doing so and had more in the pipeline had they not capitulated. If just for Unit 731 and the sadistic horrors (this wasn't science) they inflicted on human beings. And shame on the U.S. for giving those motherfuckers immunity. There better be a hell.

The Japanese are weird as fuck. But without military power, a samurai class and an imperial deity, they're harmless.

 

[Jack Davenport]

Japan's refusal to surrender after the first bomb pretty much proves they deserved to be nuked.

 

[sean miguel]

Japan's refusal to surrender after the first bomb pretty much proves they deserved to be nuked.

and what was planned for San Diego and Southern California in September of that year.


Remember, we're grading on a curve. Despite it's faults, America has been the greatest force for good in this world. You stupid fucking libs laugh at that notion, but again, compared to what?

 

[sean miguel]

The Japanese are weird as fuck. But without military power, a samurai class and an imperial deity, they're harmless.

Unless you're a whale. Right, greenpeace?

Two weren't enough.

 

[tvstrip]

No, Japan pretty much deserved to be nuked. We were justified in doing so and had more in the pipeline had they not capitulated. If just for Unit 731 and the sadistic horrors (this wasn't science) they inflicted on human beings.

So you're saying that everyone in a country that committed a war crime deserves to be nuked?
Even if we're just talking about WWII that means you're saying:
Canada
United States
France
Yugoslavia
Soviet Union
United Kingdom
China
Australia
All deserved to be nuked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

 

[tvstrip]

Japan's refusal to surrender after the first bomb pretty much proves they deserved to be nuked.

1) They literally didn't know what hit them. There was only 3 days between bombs and between fighting all the fires and chaos it's not like you could take a detailed witness statement of what happened.
2) Even if they did realize what it was, they were justified in thinking that there couldn't be many more of them (or even more than one).
3) Various other reasons like trusting the Backstabbing Soviets would honour their non-aggression treaty.

 

[sean miguel]

So you're saying that everyone in a country that committed a war crime deserves to be nuked?
Even if we're just talking about WWII that means you're saying:
Canada
United States
France
Yugoslavia
Soviet Union
United Kingdom
China
Australia
All deserved to be nuked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II

Are you going to compare war crimes committed by the allies to what Germany and Japan did which was systematic and in the case of Germany, involved genocide?

Here's some of what Japan's Unit 731 conducted on hundreds of thousands civilians:

Vivisection

Thousands of men, women and children interred at prisoner of war camps were subjected to vivisection, often without anesthesia and usually ending with the death of the victim. Vivisections were performed on prisoners after infecting them with various diseases. Researchers performed invasive surgery on prisoners, removing organs to study the effects of disease on [nobabe]the human body[/nobabe]. These were conducted while the patients were alive because it was feared that the decomposition process would affect the results. The infected and vivisected prisoners included men, women, children, and infants.

Prisoners had limbs amputated in order to study blood loss. Those limbs that were removed were sometimes re-attached to the opposite sides of [nobabe]the body[/nobabe]. Some prisoners' limbs were frozen and amputated, while others had limbs frozen, then thawed to study the effects of the resultant untreated gangrene and rotting.

Some prisoners had their stomachs surgically removed and the esophagus reattached to the intestines. Parts of the brain, lungs, liver, etc., were removed from some prisoners.

Japanese army surgeon Ken Yuasa suggests that the practice of vivisection on human subjects (mostly Chinese communists) was widespread even outside Unit 731, estimating that at least 1,000 Japanese personnel were involved in the practice in mainland China.

Germ warfare attacks

Prisoners were injected with inoculations of disease, disguised as vaccinations, to study their effects. To study the effects of untreated venereal diseases, male and female prisoners were deliberately infected with syphilis and gonorrhea, then studied. Prisoners were also repeatedly subject to rape by guards.

Plague fleas, infected clothing, and infected supplies encased in bombs were dropped on various targets. The resulting cholera, anthrax, and plague were estimated to have killed around and possibly more than 400,000 Chinese civilians. Tularemia was tested on Chinese civilians.

Unit 731 and its affiliated units (Unit 1644 and Unit 100 among others) were involved in research, development, and experimental deployment of epidemic-creating biowarfare weapons in assaults against the Chinese populace (both civilian and military) throughout World War II. Plague-infested fleas, bred in the laboratories of Unit 731 and Unit 1644, were spread by low-flying airplanes upon Chinese cities, coastal Ningbo in 1940, and Changde, Hunan Province, in 1941. This military aerial spraying killed thousands of people with bubonic plague epidemics.

It is possible that Unit 731's methods and objectives were also followed in Indonesia, in a case of failed experiment designed to validate a conjured tetanus toxoid vaccine.

Frostbite testing

Physiologist Yoshimura Hisato conducted experiments by taking captives outside, dipping various appendages into water, and allowing the limb to freeze. Once frozen, which testimony from a Japanese officer said "was determined after the 'frozen arms, when struck with a short stick, emitted a sound resembling that which a board gives when it is struck'", ice was chipped away and the area doused in water. The effects of different water temperatures were tested by bludgeoning the victim to determine if any areas were still frozen. Variations of these tests in more gruesome forms were performed.

Syphilis

Doctors orchestrated forced sex acts between infected and non-infected prisoners to transmit the disease, as the testimony of a prison guard on the subject of devising a method for transmission of syphilis between patients shows:

"Infection of venereal disease by injection was abandoned, and the researchers started forcing the prisoners into sexual acts with each other. Four or five unit members, dressed in white laboratory clothing completely cover [nobabe]the body[/nobabe] with only eyes and mouth visible, handled the tests. A male and female, one infected with syphilis, would be brought together in a cell and forced into sex with each other. It was made clear that anyone resisting would be shot."

After victims were infected, they were vivisected at different stages of infection, so that internal and external organs could be observed as the disease progressed. Testimony from multiple guards blames the female victims as being hosts of the diseases, even as they were forcibly infected. Genitals of female prisoners that were infected with syphilis were called "jam filled buns" by guards.

Some children grew up inside the walls of Unit 731, infected with syphilis. A Youth Corps member deployed to train at Unit 731 recalled viewing a batch of subjects that would undergo syphilis testing: "one was a Chinese woman holding an infant, one was a White Russian woman with a daughter of four or five years of age, and the last was a White Russian woman with a boy of about six or seven." The children of these women were tested in ways similar to their parents, with specific emphasis on determining how longer infection periods affected the effectiveness of treatments.

note: they couldn't have injected the syphilis with a syringe but they forced the victims into sex acts so the japanese scientists could masturbate their 3-inch dicks as they watched. fucking weirdos.

Rape and forced pregnancy

Female prisoners were forced to become pregnant for use in experiments. The hypothetical possibility of vertical transmission (from mother to fetus or child) of diseases, particularly syphilis, was the stated reason for the torture. Fetal survival and damage to mother's reproductive organs were objects of interest. Though "a large number of babies were born in captivity", there has been no account of any survivors of Unit 731, children included. It is suspected that the children of female prisoners were killed or the pregnancies terminated.

While male prisoners were often used in single studies, so that the results of the experimentation on them would not be clouded by other variables, women were sometimes used in bacteriological or physiological experiments, sex experiments, and the victims of sex crimes. The testimony of a unit member that served as guard graphically demonstrates this reality:

"One of the former researchers I located told me that one day he had a human experiment scheduled, but there was still time to kill. So he and another unit member took the keys to the cells and opened one that housed a Chinese woman. One of the unit members raped her; the other member took the keys and opened another cell. There was a Chinese woman in there who had been used in a frostbite experiment. She had several fingers missing and her bones were black, with gangrene set in. He was about to rape her anyway, then he saw that her sex organ was festering, with pus oozing to the surface. He gave up the idea, left, and locked the door, then later went on to his experimental work."

Weapon testing
Human targets were used to test grenades positioned at various distances and in different positions. Flame throwers were tested on humans. Humans were tied to stakes and used as targets to test germ-releasing bombs, chemical weapons, and explosive bombs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

These crimes were committed against hundreds of thousands of civilians and POWs in Japanese controlled territory. Not to mention the brutality committed by Japan's conventional forces on the populations they conquered.

Yeah, they deserved more than two.

fuck them.

and deserving to be nuked and should have are different.

The firebombing of Dresden was a punitive action by Britain. It was payback.

 

[acenipplelicker]

What the fuck are you talking about?
I'm sorry.
Let me rephrase that?
Begging your pardon, I believe you have your facts wrong. How did dropping a nuke on 2 civilian populated cities prevent Russia from doing anything Sir? Ma'am?
On second thought my first question was better. Go with that one.

I know I did not explain it very well and believe it was ok to use the a bomb in ww2 against japan- just bearly though
There is some revisionist thinking the bomb was used to end the war and more.

The us and Russia had an agreement at the Potsdam conference that Russia would help defeat japan after Germany was defeated
some in the us did not want that as they would invade Manchuria and get more territory with - it would be harder to get Russia to give it up at wars end
so the thinking was end the war early with the bomb so Russia would not gain all the extra territory.

It would have been months more to invade japan home islands- they were fanatical Klingons so to speak
I had a college class in history and he covered the bomb droppind and the japan side od ww2 which was new territory as most other ww2 classes covered the European side and glossed over the japan side

Actuallu our gen Curtis le may said the us could have been brought up on war crimes charges over the fire bombing of Tokyo- it was designed to attack civilians and not military targets or factories- it targeted their highly flammable wooden houses and killed thousands of civilians.

targeting civilians rather than military targets is a little blood thirsty. Whether you like his comment he did make it it was in secy macnamara s book

With the us winning the war it was not an issue but had we lost the winner might have had a problem with fire bombing civilians as the prime target. Its one thing to bomb military targets and get civilian deaths but another to ignore military targets and bomb civilians as the chief objective

IT would have been like the us targeting civilians in Iraq rather than Iraq military targets to depose saddam Hussein.- the world would not stand for that

 

[tvstrip]

Are you going to compare war crimes committed by the allies to what Germany and Japan did which was systematic and in the case of Germany, involved genocide?
Here's some of what Japan's Unit 731 conducted on hundreds of thousands civilians:
Yeah, they deserved more than two.
fuck them.
and deserving to be nuked and should have are different.
The firebombing of Dresden was a punitive action by Britain. It was payback.

1) I'm not going to argue that 731 was deplorable. But it's not justification. Why? Only 2 such programs have been completely disclosed (including the research methods you listed) , 731 & Saddam Hussein's. Why? Because no country that has such a program is going to disclose that info. Yes, the US has a chemical & biological weapons program; why do you think they offered them amnesty for that info? It's no secret that the US, Russia, China and many others have such weapons. Do you think any military would equip weapons that haven't been tested? And you can bet that even today China is testing on Falun Gong members and other political dissidents.
If you're saying 731 justifies Japan getting nuked, then you're saying all the other countries with such programs deserve it as well.

2) I could go through each of the experiments you listed but then this post would get way to long. But I do want to address your Frostbite Testing because I know someone personally who was affected by it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_prisoners_of_war_in_the_Soviet_Union
No, not 731, but the Fucking Ruskies. They took Japanese POWs AFTER WWII and sent them to the Siberian Gulags. And from those that made it back, it's widely established they were subject to the frostbite testing you described. Side note, while numbers vary, if you consider 560,000-760,000 were taken and 350,000 didn't return, you can't argue these were nothing more than death camps.

3) And most importantly, you still haven't addressed my main point: You can't say an ENTIRE COUNTRY "deserves" to be nuked, because there is a difference between the leadership, military and general civilian population of a country. You Might argue that the first and/or second deserve it, but you can't justify the civilian population of an ENTIRE COUNTRY. Even Acelicker understands that point.

 

[meesterperfect]

I know I did not explain it very well and believe it was ok to use the a bomb in ww2 against japan- just bearly though
There is some revisionist thinking the bomb was used to end the war and more.

The us and Russia had an agreement at the Potsdam conference that Russia would help defeat japan after Germany was defeated
some in the us did not want that as they would invade Manchuria and get more territory with - it would be harder to get Russia to give it up at wars end
so the thinking was end the war early with the bomb so Russia would not gain all the extra territory.

It would have been months more to invade japan home islands- they were fanatical Klingons so to speak
I had a college class in history and he covered the bomb droppind and the japan side od ww2 which was new territory as most other ww2 classes covered the European side and glossed over the japan side

Actuallu our gen Curtis le may said the us could have been brought up on war crimes charges over the fire bombing of Tokyo- it was designed to attack civilians and not military targets or factories- it targeted their highly flammable wooden houses and killed thousands of civilians.

targeting civilians rather than military targets is a little blood thirsty. Whether you like his comment he did make it it was in secy macnamara s book

With the us winning the war it was not an issue but had we lost the winner might have had a problem with fire bombing civilians as the prime target. Its one thing to bomb military targets and get civilian deaths but another to ignore military targets and bomb civilians as the chief objective

IT would have been like the us targeting civilians in Iraq rather than Iraq military targets to depose saddam Hussein.- the world would not stand for that

I appreciate the detailed post.
For me however at this point in my life it's all moot.
I feel the USA had no business in the South Pacific in the first place.
I feel they provoked Japan into war before Dec 7th.
I believe those in charge at the time knew Pearl Harbor was going to be attacked and did nothing to prevent it.
I feel all wars that the US has been in post 1812 were avoidable and their primary reason was for the bankers who control the currency.
I also believe that the USA has a history which is stronger than ever today of targeting civilians and killing them. Same goes for England.

Sure the Japanese commited war crimes and genocides. But I can't condone or find that just cause for nuking 2 cities filled with civilians.
If that was the case then somebody should have nuked us many times as well.

 

[sean miguel]

And most importantly, you still haven't addressed my main point: You can't say an ENTIRE COUNTRY "deserves" to be nuked, because there is a difference between the leadership, military and general civilian population of a country. You might argue that the first and/or second deserve it, but you can't justify the civilian population of an ENTIRE COUNTRY. Even Acelicker understands that point.

Their babies and young children didn't deserve it. Their shiba inus were innocent too (poor things). Japan's civilian population was united in it's support of it's military and it's brutal conquests across the region and their Emperor who they considered divine. They were "fanatical klingons" as nipplelicker put it and would've fought to the last or committed mass suicide at the order of their emperor. But on the mornings of Aug. 6th and 9th they looked up in the sky and saw their sun goddess and she was not happy. And still they would've fought on had their emperor not got on nation-wide radio and denounced his divinity. Karma is a bitch.

 

[sean miguel]

And still they would've fought on had their emperor not got on nation-wide radio and denounced his divinity. Karma is a bitch.

Sorry, RE-nounced. But you know what I meant. I blame swype.

 

[tvstrip]

Japan's civilian population was united in it's support of it's military and it's brutal conquests across the region and their Emperor who they considered divine.
And still they would've fought on had their emperor not got on nation-wide radio and denounced his divinity.

No, the civilian population was not united in fanaticism

The Gyokuon-hōsō you mention was the radio broadcast famous for the "enduring the unendurable and suffering what is insufferable" quote that announced the surrender. He didn't renounce his divinity; that wasn't until 1946's Humanity_Declaration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity_Declaration).

So as far as the populace was concerned, he was still a god even after the surrender. But that didn't result in a mass suicide by the civilian population. Yes, a bunch of officers committed seppuku according to the Bushido code, but it was far from "widespread"; after all they still had enough left alive to charge almost 6000 of them for war crimes after the surrender. The only time civilians committed mass suicides was on the islands captured by the americans where there was literally no escape, so it was driven more out of fear/despair rather than devotion to the emperor. So if the emperor couldn't convince civilians commit suicide even when they considered him a god, what do you think their opinion would be when he renounced? I'm not arguing that a good part of the population supported the war (after all, for all they knew from the propaganda the war was going well), but to say they were completely united in their fanaticism? Hell no. What do you think the Kempeitai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kempeitai) were doing?

 

[Supafly]

If this thrads continues like the way you wander off, it could win the title of "Most derailed Thread of 2016"

In case you want to look at the Hotel in question, here you are:

Hotel Mattenhof

 

[sean miguel]

No, the civilian population was not united in fanaticism

The Gyokuon-hōsō you mention was the radio broadcast famous for the "enduring the unendurable and suffering what is insufferable" quote that announced the surrender. He didn't renounce his divinity; that wasn't until 1946's Humanity_Declaration (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity_Declaration).

So as far as the populace was concerned, he was still a god even after the surrender. But that didn't result in a mass suicide by the civilian population. Yes, a bunch of officers committed seppuku according to the Bushido code, but it was far from "widespread"; after all they still had enough left alive to charge almost 6000 of them for war crimes after the surrender. The only time civilians committed mass suicides was on the islands captured by the americans where there was literally no escape, so it was driven more out of fear/despair rather than devotion to the emperor. So if the emperor couldn't convince civilians commit suicide even when they considered him a god, what do you think their opinion would be when he renounced? I'm not arguing that a good part of the population supported the war (after all, for all they knew from the propaganda the war was going well), but to say they were completely united in their fanaticism? Hell no. What do you think the Kempeitai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kempeitai) were doing?

There was one political party in Imperial Japan that openly opposed it's militarism, it was the Japanese Communist Party (of course) but between them and whatever dissident movement there was was insignificant. And yeah the Kempeitai made sure of that.

Let me phrase it this way, and I'll let this derailment be - not everyone in Japan and Germany deserved to be nuked. But Germany and Japan's actions - the atrocities they committed in both cruelty and scale - both of those countries deserved to have visited on themelves what they inflicted on their neighbors, be it incendiary bombs over Tokyo or Dresden or Hiroshima and Nagasaki or what the Soviets did. It was payback, and they had it coming.