Don't support the troops.

[member2686]

I wouldn't call it "trolling." I'd call it "baiting," and there are members here who will do that until the sun comes down just so they can run their mouths and vent their frustrations with their personal lives and blame them on society, other people, or other countries, KFD.

However, in his defense, Fox isn't usually one of those people who talk smack just to **** people off. There are others who do that, but I'm not gonna flame or toss darts at anyone...

They know who they are. :hatsoff: :2 cents:

 

[SeraphiM]

They know who they are. :hatsoff: :2 cents:

And so do we.

 

[qweretyuiopas@]

And so do we.

*Evil Star Wars music plays in the background*
:1orglaugh

 

[ChrisSimms#2]

I'm not even go to say anything there no point to explain it to somone like you

 

[Jagger69]

I am against the war in Iraq. I am very much against George Bush, and I am sickened by the what has been shown from Iraq about how some American soldiers ****** prisoners. I don't think that such people can defend themselves by claiming that they just followed orders.

However, I still think that the soldiers need and deserve support. Despite that the media focus so much on the negative sides of the war, I have no doubt that the soldiers are needed and that the majority of them really want to make things better.

I'm against war. I'm against ******* and I'm against ********. But the world isn't a perfect place and sometimes it's needed to use *****. I think that Iraq war was a mistake and wrong, but now that we have invaded their country, we sure as hell have to help the iraqis rebuild and stabilize their home.

Well stated and pretty much sums up my views. I'm against the war, wish we had never gone in but now that we are there we need to find a stablization point where we can bring the troops home. These brave people deserve our total support no matter what. They didn't start the war but believe they are serving the best interests of the country in a totally selfless way. Whether their outlook on whether the war is justified or not, their intentions, on the whole, are extremely noble and dignified. It isn't thier job to interpret policy....they carry out orders as they are supposed to do. If I was being shot at, I'd do the same fucking thing. We owe them a debt of gratitude that cannot be repaid.

I only wish that civilization was at the stage of development that the foolish leaders who blatantly lead us into wars where our soldiers must not only ****, but be ******, would instead be ****** to face off in a steel-cage no-holds-barred fight-to-the death winner-take-all wrestling match against the opposition leader. I think if that were the case, there would be a hell of a lot fewer wars, that's for sure.

Don't support out troops? No fucking way. Bring 'em back alive as soon as possible? Absolutely.

 

[hedonis]

Well, with Iraq, I wish people would stop talking about it as "Win it". We did that- Saddam Hussein's regime is destroyed. Any idea how long we've had troops in other nations we've defeated? Say... Japan, Germany, Haiti, Kosovo? Actually, we still have troops in all those places. Undoing what was done to Iraq for so long is going to take time, and you NEVER- NEV-ER hear about the good that's been done, or that most of the country doesn't suffer insurgent attacks now. All we hear about are the bombs.

Dig- read-learn. Find out what our troops have been doing *outside* of what CNN reports, and you'll see that we're making a positive difference over there. It's incredibly hard to fight theological, ideological battles like this.

And lastly, the notion of the only army being able to engage in conflict being UN Peacekeepers with 80% votes from the UN scares the hell out of me. I don't want any other nation or politician being able to decide what MY sovreign nation does.

H

 

[jdb67]

Its great to see the likes of Trigger and Co expressing their point of view.....

Freedom of Speech is a beautiful thing!!.... Something that is protected by the very Troops He and his Supporters are denigrating.

I suspect that Trigger and his mates would not last long under the Regimes that the Western World is currently at war with....

 

[Mayhem]

As I recall, we had a coalition when we invaded Iraq. And we've had a coalition during the peace keeping effort. What more do you want, Fox??

 

[Mayhem]

Well let me tell you the international community have very good reason to doubt and distrust America, given our military past. So it works both ways. We need to start trusting global consensus at some point.

Fox, do you even bother to watch the news?? The Germans and the French were selling Saddam technology that was against U.N. sanctions. Mistrust works both ways. It is ridiculous to say that our motives are solely self-serving when the hard evidence shows that it is Europe that is out to make a buck. That is why the E.U. was/is so critical of us moving into Iraq. They didn't want to get caught! Frankly, with "friends" like that, I'd be doing things on my own too.

You have clamored for respect for your opinions. The respect you get from me will be a direct contrast to the research you put into them.

 

[Member2019]

The troops follow their civilian, elected leader ...

Now, even though you might agree that the real evil doers are the leaders who send people into an unjust war.

How do you define "unjust"?
That it's not going right? That the US' leaders did what it wanted?
That the UN didn't stamp it's approve with a 24th resolution?
That the US (and Japan, Spain and others) decikded that 2nd resolution and subsequent related cease-fire resolutions were being ********, and that was enough?

That the US wanted to hold a country that invaded Kuwait, lost a war, agreed to a cease-fire and its terms, and then didn't abide by them, accountable?
That the US should just forget about policy, enforcing it, etc...?
That the US should just admit its policy is flawed, and not worry about the reprocussions of that with Iran, Libya, North Korea, South Africa, etc...?

We also can not deny that the ones who actually pull the triggers are the soldies themselves.

Pull the triggers on whom?
Are you arguing that the US' soldiers are over there, pulling the trigger on innocent civilians? On purpose?
That the US soldier is individually responsible for the insurrection?
That the US soldier can do anything about the insurrection?

Some might excuse them and say that they have no choice but to go,

I'll answer that in a minute, but first ...

that they might be in a financially tough situation and need the money.

That's ex-post facto.
If you want to visit the reasons why they joined, that's one thing.
But once they join, it is a crime to go AWOL or dissert your military.

Or that they are patriots who mistakenly believe that they are fighting for the good of their country.

The job of the solider is not to think, but to act -- within the confines of the "rules of engagement" -- as ordered.

From the screenplay adaptation of Flight of the Intruder, by Steve Coontz (an A-6 Intruder pilot himself, and a Vietnam Vet):

"You took an oath to defend the constitution and obey the orders of the officers appointed over you. It's the same oath that every
officer in the navy has taken for damn near 200 years. And during all that time, the military has obeyed the civilians over the elected government.

Now, they might not have always been right or wise or even smart, but they were elected. Any other way, and the United States would be nothing more than another two-bit military dictatorship."

Now think about what Mr. Coontz is saying there before you respond.

But if you enlist in the military for the money,

Do you really think Americans enlist in the US military -- the federal service with the lowest pay, lowest benefits and highest casulty rate (by a massive gap) because it's about money?

what are you then, other than a mercenary, a hired killer?

I'm sorry, but I know no one who joins the active US military for such!
In fact, the overwhelming majority of reservists don't join for that reason either!
The "farce" that people join for money is a joke among the US military -- both active and reservist.
The US has constantly called on its reservists over the last 15 years,

And isn't it the responisbility of everyone to consider their own actions?

Yes! As a solider, it is your responsibility to use proper judgement, under the "rules of engagement," when in combat.

No matter if your leaders tell you that going to war is the right thing to do, you still have the ability to think for yourself.

NO!
You take an oath!

If you go to another country and **** people in an unjust war you are still a ********, even if you are wearing a uniform.

It's called combat.
If you are ******* innocent civilians, yes, it's ******.
If that person is holding a *** at you, they are not a civilian, and it's combat.

Really think about what you're saying.
Do rationalize what you say is to say that no war is just, no soldier should serve, and there's no reason any country should ever **** anyone else.

There's no deterent to someone invading another country.

 

[Member2019]

Soldiers use slang terms FOR EVERYONE!

ps: dont call them ragheads..

You should hear what the soldiers call EVERYONE -- from allies, fellow Americans up to the Commander-in-Chief himself.
But at no time do they ever ******* their oath!

 

[Member2019]

Arab states HAVE A PRE-EMPTIVE POLICY!

But let me ask you this. What if every country adopted the United States' pre-emptive military agenda? What if Israel and Arab Nations acted pre-emptively against POTENTIAL aggressors? They would destroy each other.

They have already implemented this policy!

Arab nations have launched no less than 3 pre-emptive strikes on Israel!

Iraq invaded Kuwait because the US had previously show NO efforts to protect any Arab nation!
In fact, it was former-UK PM Marget Thatcher that told H. Bush that aggression in the Middle East cannot stand.
Since then, the US has changed its policy.

As far as "pre-emption" -- remember, Iraq lost a war and never abided by its terms.
Iraq was caught red handed moving around dozens of centrifuges as late as 1996, and others (some caught on film by UN inspectors) were NEVER accounted for.

Moreover, what if the USSR and USA had acted pre-emptively during the Cold War? You and I would probably not be having this conversation.

But did not the US have a plan of "nuclear pre-emption" in the defense of Western Europe?
Did the US not defend against missiles being introduced in Cuba with the threat of a nuclear strike?

There is never an excuse or a justification for pre-emptive action... NEVER.
The country that acts pre-emptively IS the aggressor.

Have you ever read the UN resolutions with regards to Iraq?
There is more than legal justification in there -- as stated by the Italians, Japanese, Spannish, etc...!

The country that acts pre-emptively IS the bad guy. Because you never know if that country you attacked was ever actually going to ****** anyone.

Iraq invaded Kuwait, agreed to terms and was in total ********* of those terms!
The WMD argument should have never been made, and Bush appeased (and looked like an idiot doing so).

The entire US policy is based on enforcement of terms -- to not do so is the problem we have right now with Iran and North Korea!
Thank God countries like Libya have "come around" -- because they know what happens when you defy the UN resolutions first hand from years of dealing with the US.

That's what I believe.
Good to have you in on the discussion, though. And my being British or European doesn't exclude me in ANY way from this discussion: I have spent my entire adult life in America, and I despise imperialism, whether it is the U.S., now, or Britain of yore. Europe is still very imperialistic too. Implerialism in this context is when you get rich off other nations (and cause extreme poverty in those nations in the process) and have your fingers in every pie. That is how I define it, that is an exact description of U.S. AND European foreign economic philosophies and policies, whatever "globalism" bullshit they may spout.

You really need to read up on the history of the Middle East post-WWII -- especially before the US started assisting many nations in the Middle East.

By the mid-'70s, the US got tired of it, and started taking a more active role.
Yes, we've fucked up a lot -- I don't deny that.
But you're rather ignorant of actual history if you believe the US is the "problem."

The only reason Israel is not invaded outright is because they have kicked the Arab states' asses so many times.
And that was before the US started providing assistance.

Iran with 100 centrifuges gives them more than enough to provide sub-5% refined uranium for energy usage, and let's them build a bomb in 10-15 years.
Iran with 3,000 centrifuges is for the sole purpose of refining uranium for use in an atomic weapon!
If Iran gets an atomic weapon, Israel is glass the next day.

Israel, the US and other nations have atomic and thermonuclear weapons, but how many countries are glass?
How many people do the policies of Israel and US dictate their extermination and genocide?
Think about that!

The only problem with the US is that we don't realize that we should never "sue for peace" other than under the terms of UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER.
We were reminded of that once again after 1991.

 

[LordVader66]

Not even going to justify this thread with a response. Trigger and fox are entitled to their opinions, but that also does not mean we all have to agree with them, and the reverse is also true.

 

[lordvader1]

Okay so what you anti-war people are saying is let's just let diplomacy handle everything? That didn't stop King George or Hitler. So if the colonies didn't take up arms there would be no United States and what we are talking about now could be made out to be treasonous and we'd all be hanged. If D-Day didn't happen Europe wouldn't exist today and Germany would be the largest country in the world. Let me put this hypothesis out there for you:

Your country is being invaded or and intruder has broken into your home. The bad guy has your 5 year old ******** in him arms with a *** to her head. You have a *** in your hand as well, will you drop the *** and hope he turns into a saint and let's all of you go without pain of death? Or do you blow his fuckin ass away to protect your ******? Guess in Trigger and Fox's minds it's bye sweety I'll see you soon at the gates.

You fuckin people make me sick. Whether you believe the war is just or not there are people out there dying in defense of this country. Being attacked by a faceless bunch of cowards who don't have the balls to stand up and fight man to man. Trigger and Fox are probably the ones who think 9/11 was a good thing. These men and women are fighting for the freedoms you so richly enjoy, damn you for bashing them. You know what I bet Ahmed over in Baghdad can't get on this forum and give a reply. But some GI with an M-16 is goddamn sure he can. GO TROOPS!!!!

 

[Member2019]

Okay so what you anti-war people are saying is let's just let diplomacy handle everything?
That didn't stop King George

Don't go there -- let alone which King George?
If you mean King George III, he didn't wield much power during the American Revolution, and the US owed much to the British Magna Carta.
The American Revolution is poorly taught in US schools -- it's much deeper than that.

or Hitler.

Now on the other hand, Saddam Hussein wasn't quite Adolf Hitler, but he was very much a Joe Stalin.
He had more troops than all the major Arab nations combined in 1990.
He could have easily invaded the whole region.
He played games until he knew the game was over once W. got in.
I still wish, to this day, that Clinton would have gone in back in 1998 -- something he almost did do.
But it's all hindsight now.

You fuckin people make me sick.
Whether you believe the war is just or not there are people out there dying in defense of this country.

Now I have to 100% agree with lordvader1 there! 100%!!!
The American soldier does what he/she is told, with the utmost regard for life and rules of engagement -- often to their own death!
The demonizations of American soldiers do make me sick as well and I find the ignorant statements in this thread to be offensive.

But I don't expect anyone who has not served in the US armed ****** to understand.
If anything, they are the people that have earned the right to bitch about what is wrong with the elected civilians on this war!
Think about that for awhile!

Being attacked by a faceless bunch of cowards who don't have the balls to stand up and fight man to man.
Trigger and Fox are probably the ones who think 9/11 was a good thing.

Okay, don't go there -- don't drag 9/11 into this, your viewpoint is just going to be ignored.

These men and women are fighting for the freedoms you so richly enjoy, damn you for bashing them.
You know what I bet Ahmed over in Baghdad can't get on this forum and give a reply.
But some GI with an M-16 is goddamn sure he can. GO TROOPS!!!!

If anyone has earned the right not to be demonized, it is the underpaid, over-threatened, peace-loving American soldier.
The man or women who does what they are told, and avoids civilian casulties at all cost.

And in many cases, they expense their own lives saving civilians of other nations their cowardly enemy blantantly tries to ****!

 

[lordvader1]

No I'm a very OPEN-minded hatemongerer. And I bet you other half are the ones burning the American flag in the streets of Tehran, but in reality long to be living over here. You speak of peace!!?? But your people hijack planes, blow up hotels, subways etc. How are these acts of ******** peaceful? Oh yeah, God tells you all to do it so it's justified. And I have no right to say things about you and the other guy? What gives you the right to bash our ******? Leave your families country alone....if you love it so much go back there!! But you probably won't because you have it too good here. It's pretty obvious to me that we will never agree on anything. My hatred burns way too deep to let go......

 

[Member2019]

Stop and read what people actually say!

As for Ahmed in Baghdad, my real first name is AHMAD you closed-minded hatemongerer,

Whoa! Did you actually read his statement?!?!?!
Here it is again ...

"You know what I bet Ahmed over in Baghdad can't get on this forum and give a reply."

What he's saying is that this fictional Ahmad is not free to do so.
He wasn't criticizing Ahmad, but the world he is ****** to live in!

and half of my ****** live in Iran and America better leave MY families' country the hell alone.

Dude, stop and read what people actually say!
He wasn't saying anything about Arabs, but the freedoms they often don't enjoy.

I'm sorry, but I'll take the dedication of the average American soldier over any other nation any day of the week!
Again, I've read these comments with the "most open mind," and I can safely say, there are a lot of ignorant people here.

Don't blame US soldiers, they're just doing their job.
And they do it under constraints you would not believe!

 

[member2686]

Gentlemen... Let's keep this on an ideological level of discussion and keep the personal bashing at bay, please.

I'm no mod here, and don't pretend to be, but I smell trouble, and let's not let it get to that level. We can disagree all day long and do so with civility - it makes for interesting discussion, if nothing else. Maybe we'll all learn a bit of something from it, despite our differences.

Just my :2 cents:

:hatsoff:

 

[lordvader1]

Prof, thanks exactly what I was trying to say.
However I feel that bringing 9/11 into the mix is important. It's been almost 5 years now and I think that most people have forgotten about it. I'm originally from Jersey and I saw it all first hand, those images of Manhattan covered in smoke burn inside me. The troops, I believe are fighting on behalf of that day. Not for oil or power like some believe but for the right of all mankind so that day doesn't happen ever again. If some of you want to be afraid to go to work for fear of a plane hitting your building or your subway car exploding fine it's your choice. As for me I'd rather fight for my freedoms and to rid the world of evil so that we all can actually have some peace.

 

[Member2019]

Prof, thanks exactly what I was trying to say.
However I feel that bringing 9/11 into the mix is important.
It's been almost 5 years now and I think that most people have forgotten about it.

While I think people don't realize that the "Bush Doctrine" comes much from both 9/11 and the hindsight provided by the Clinton Administration, you have to be very careful in separating out issues.
E.g., the legal reasons and justification for our invasion of Iraq is not in some "pre-emption" policy or other rhetoric, but in the UN resolutions themselves.
The only mistake W. ever made was trying to get further justification -- a folly the Japanese regularly pointed out.

I'm originally from Jersey and I saw it all first hand, those images of Manhattan covered in smoke burn inside me.
The troops, I believe are fighting on behalf of that day.

Americans fight because they believe in this nation as a whole, as a people.
The policies and politics change, they are not always correct, but they fight because of that oath to the Constitution, and its elected civil leaders in the hope they know best.

Not for oil or power like some believe but for the right of all mankind so that day doesn't happen ever again.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Iraq is about securing oil resources.
Not just for the US, but for many, many nations of the world.
That's why we were able to build a 42 country coalition in 2003 -- something that is heavily underreported.

If some of you want to be afraid to go to work for fear of a plane hitting your building or your subway car exploding fine it's your choice.

I don't agree with many aspects of the "Bush Doctrine," and I believe it is causing more harm than good in some areas.
But other areas -- including the infamous "Axis of Evil" speech -- that was 100% dead, spon-on!
Three (3) nations blantantly ********* the UN continually, without care.

Iran has now gone off the deep-end -- and they won't realize what they've done until its too late.
Kinda sad, especially since people here don't know what 3,000 centrifuges would be used for, let alone that Iran has pledged to transfer nuclear technology to other Arab states.

As for me I'd rather fight for my freedoms and to rid the world of evil so that we all can actually have some peace.

Be careful with that statement.
Be very careful.