Deciding between Liberal and Conservative Politics

[scubamike]

fair and balanced is actually discussing the issues, not what fox news says. or the new York times, for that matter.

I don't really give a shit what is or what isn't "liberal" or "conservative."

everyone knows that I am highly critical of many policies of the US government and of Big Business. and some would call that a conservative POV, while others call it liberal.

one thing that I always say is that people should be held accountable for their actions. In the words that spiderman lives by: with great power comes great responsibility. Those who have great power and great responsibility have a lot to be held accountable for.

I can't agree with you more there!

I welcome debate, and my intention in discussing politics is to get to the heart of the issues. I think that most people on here are about that.

I don't just say "america sucks and if you disagree with me you are an idiot."

true

on the same hand, it's petty and stupid to say that everyone who is critical of america "hates america" or "supports terrorism."

true also

these knee jerk responses are used by people that are intentionally trying to manipulate debate for the sole purpose of stopping discourse. they are the real enemy, the one's that don't want you to think about things. And they aren't worried about lib or conserv either.

thanks for your message!

 

[scubamike]

Why do so many people feel the need to be one or the other? I like the fact I'm independent. It would be better if people acted and thought independently instead of mindlessly following ideology. Of course having reasonable voting options that reflected that would be nice.

Rep for you. People MUST follow their gut instincts and not let others lead them around with decisions. People shouldn't let myself, AFA (respectfully), Bill O'reilly, Michael Moore, and many others tell them what is right or wrong. They need to decide for themselves.

Independent is great (as long as it's not Anarchy because that holds no peace). Thank you!

 

[scubamike]

to entire fucking problem with politics and thing like this topic is that you shouldn't label your feelings to an entire group.

if u feel a certain way about something, choose it, you do not have to follow a certain platform if u dont agree with the whole thing. think independent and be true to yourself!

Expressed feelings are certainly welcome, but the more respectful they are the more they will be considered.

I'm certainly trying to be as fair as possible in this thread. I have my views of course and they could lean both directions, but I'll express them in a fashion not to offend anyone because I do not want to be characterized as a hater. Thanks for your message.

 

[scubamike]

^ Couldn't agree more !:thumbsup:




Bush does not represent the values of mainstream conservatives. I don't know of one single so called conservative that appreciates this s.o.b.
So don't frame conservatives or republicans as lock step in unison with this guy.

It's sort of how you would likely suggest that Obama's opponents not equate Barak with the standoffishness displayed by Dr. Wright.

Is that fair ?

I know that some Conservatives do not like what W has done. They do not like his border policy (they want a stronger one) and they don't like his war-handling, to name a few.

Fair comments

 

[scubamike]

Scuba what I would say is I would hope people vote what they think is their interests and the interests of people like them.Which for the majority of the country which is middle class or lower would probably not be the republicans/conservatives.When I hear pubs(republicans for short) talk about how bad class warfare is I laugh because in my mind thats what they have been about for a long time.They support policys that benefit the few at the top at the expense of the majority.Real income for the majority of people in this country has been declining since the early 70s while for the wealthy it has grown enormously.The way they have done this is to constantly play groups off each other,middle class whites should fear minorities,foreigners etc.All the while it is corporations and there desire to maximize profits that is really the big enemy of all of us.Just look at the public perception of unions which is basically negative.Many do not realize without unions you would never have had things like the 40 hr work week ,overtime and many other benefits.Employers and the govt didn't do those things out of the goodness of their hearts ,they did them because people banded together into unions and fought for them and forced them on employers.By yourself you have little ability to force anything.

I consider myself a blue-collar middle-class person. To me, the most important thing is national security. I have a fiancee and am looking forward to starting a family. I am a hard-worker and will not expect the government to take care of me.

On Michale Moore I went and looked at IMBD to see what they said about the 2 films your referenced and I must say they were not very well reviewed.And the idea that he hates America is just a slogan that has no merit IMO.Just because you criticize things you see as unjust is not only not hating america it is being a good citizen.I would say forget Moore the person and lets focus on the truth or not of his movies.The three of his movies I have seen Roger and me,Fahrenheit 911 and Sicko were to me very accurate and true.Might be more usefull to dipute that IMO than to attack him as a person which is often what happens.

If you feel Michael Moore's movies are accurate enough, then that is great for you. But if you will watch a movie that criticizes his actions, then you'll get both sides of the story. Right now you are only paying attention to Moore's side.

Sorry I don't see it that way at all.Freed them from what,themselves?
It is not our place to decide who people should have as leaders and governments.I don't like George but I don't want some foreigners coming in and seizing him so that we can hang him.We are foreign invaders just as we were in Vietnam.We are in Iraq for one reason OIL.

No offense, but I've heard this comment millions of times. Are you sure it is your own belief?

While conservatives may be able to distance themselves from GWB,republicans are going to have to accept his legacy.And I see nothing that says they are trying to distance themselves from him.I wonder, if GWB and McCain aren't what conservatives want then just what do they want?Neitheir party can afford to just pander totally to the extremes and hope to win the support of the middle.

I hear that Ann Coulter would rather have Hillary Clinton than McCain :eek: Thanks for your comments!

 

[Friday on my mind]

First thing is you need to learn to use the multi-quote option,mods are not going to appreciate it when you have multiple posts like that.Also the way you include your comments in the body of the orginal post makes them more difficult to reply to.As when I click quote on your post all I get is the Ann Coulter comment.I can scan back and reply that way but it is diificult and will have to reference your point now also somewhat for it to make sense.

quote
"I consider myself a blue-collar middle-class person. To me, the most important thing is national security. I have a fiancee and am looking forward to starting a family. I am a hard-worker and will not expect the government to take care of me."


Your saying your concerned about national security is nice but doesn't tell me much.What does that mean politically? And this line about the govt taking care of you is not very helpfull eitheir.It would really be better to more specific in what you think govt should be doing probably than what you don't want them to do.As I said in my original post I think govt policys should be trying to benefit the majority of americans.I explained how there has been a real shift in wealth upwards in this country and that has been aided by republican policys more so than democratic ones.Although I would say even dems could be much better in that regard.

Quote
"If you feel Michael Moore's movies are accurate enough, then that is great for you. But if you will watch a movie that criticizes his actions, then you'll get both sides of the story. Right now you are only paying attention to Moore's side."

I have heard plenty of the criticism of Moore.But have never heard any I thought disputed the facts in his movies.Specifically what "actions" are your refering to?

Quote
"No offense, but I've heard this comment millions of times. Are you sure it is your own belief?"

I haven't said you are just regurgitating the right wing Fox noise type stuff that's around so why would you say that? Let me just say I am significantly older than you are and probably have a much deeper knowledge of history and events than you,so please don't infer that my opinions are not my own.And you didn't address the point I made eithier.Does the US have a right to go around and change govt's we don't approve of?

I hear that Ann Coulter would rather have Hillary Clinton than McCain :eek: Thanks for your comments!

You don't seriously think the Ann Coulters of the country really will be supporting Clinton or Obama do you?.Yeah McCain may not be enough of a right wing whacko for her but support Hillary is just stuff she says to get attention.

 

[scubamike]

This could be an interesting thread, although I kind of object to the title of it, which makes it sound like ideologies are chosen like frozen pizzas at the supermarket.... For now, though, I'll just read...

WOW! I'm glad that this thread is actually sparking some interest. My "Mma" thread I started a week ago certainly bombed :1orglaugh

Now I'm kinda curious on AFA's opinions

I guess the title is a bit extreme. It seemed reasonable when I put this thread together. I guess I should have added Moderate or Independent into the title also

Or maybe I should have called it something like this: Politics...see all the views, think about it, and make YOUR own decision

Thanks all for your interest :nanner:

 

[scubamike]

Your saying your concerned about national security is nice but doesn't tell me much.What does that mean politically? And this line about the govt taking care of you is not very helpfull eitheir.It would really be better to more specific in what you think govt should be doing probably than what you don't want them to do.

I believe the government needs to protect us from terrorism as their priority.

I have heard plenty of the criticism of Moore.But have never heard any I thought disputed the facts in his movies.Specifically what "actions" are your refering to?

What do you think about the wounded soldiers he has filmed and included in his movie? The "Michael Moore Hates America" has a soldier interviewed in the movie who is pissed that he was included into "Fahrenheit 911". What do you think about Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" filming in the one bank where he allegedly was given a gun? "Michael Moore Hates America" has different views on that. The questions are on you now.

I haven't said you are just regurgitating the right wing Fox noise type stuff that's around so why would you say that? Let me just say I am significantly older than you are and probably have a much deeper knowledge of history and events than you,so please don't infer that my opinions are not my own.And you didn't address the point I made eithier.Does the US have a right to go around and change govt's we don't approve of?

If you belittle me, I'll ignore you. But this one time, I will let it slide As for the US playing "big brother" in this world...more nations need to participate. I wish the UN will be more stern with governing policies of other nations. The US is doing it because we are the main target. If we don't, we'll get destroyed. The other countries are probably not worrying about it until the US will be annihilated...and once we're out of the picture, they will be next. Again, just my opinion.

 

[Friday on my mind]

Your saying your concerned about national security is nice but doesn't tell me much.What does that mean politically? And this line about the govt taking care of you is not very helpfull eitheir.It would really be better to more specific in what you think govt should be doing probably than what you don't want them to do.

I believe the government needs to protect us from terrorism as their priority.

I have heard plenty of the criticism of Moore.But have never heard any I thought disputed the facts in his movies.Specifically what "actions" are your refering to?

What do you think about the wounded soldiers he has filmed and included in his movie? The "Michael Moore Hates America" has a soldier interviewed in the movie who is pissed that he was included into "Fahrenheit 911". What do you think about Moore's "Bowling for Columbine" filming in the one bank where he allegedly was given a gun? "Michael Moore Hates America" has different views on that. The questions are on you now.

I haven't said you are just regurgitating the right wing Fox noise type stuff that's around so why would you say that? Let me just say I am significantly older than you are and probably have a much deeper knowledge of history and events than you,so please don't infer that my opinions are not my own.And you didn't address the point I made eithier.Does the US have a right to go around and change govt's we don't approve of?

If you belittle me, I'll ignore you. But this one time, I will let it slide As for the US playing "big brother" in this world...more nations need to participate. I wish the UN will be more stern with governing policies of other nations. The US is doing it because we are the main target. If we don't, we'll get destroyed. The other countries are probably not worrying about it until the US will be annihilated...and once we're out of the picture, they will be next. Again, just my opinion.

All I will say is Winston churchill was right about the best arguement against democracy is spend 5 minutes with the average voter.Its you my friend who believe all the nonsense propaganda that you have been told.We invade people based on fabricated lies and you think we should be supported.The only reason we aren't opposed more is due to our strength and bullying.The idea that we are going to be destroyed by anyone in the middle east is prepostourous.
Oh and BTW the word people on the left prefer is progressive as compared to Liberal.
I'm done with it,have fun with your thread,maybe some others will bother to try to enlighten you.I wish them luck.:thumbsup:

 

[bombardier52]

I think Scubamike is doing a great job of trying to have a civil debate here. It is nice to hear views from different quarters and to try and understand the hows and whys of how someone arrives at opinions. I read books and troll blogs from both sides of the fence in an effort to do just that.

I would just like to throw out this thought. Thinking people can look at the same information and come to different conclusions. A civil discusion on how you arrived at your views is pure gold. It helps those that don't think the same as you understand. If your entering argument is those that don't think the same as me are idiots then this is a waste of time. Nobody wants to be treated like that. :2 cents:

Thanks for the effort Scubamike.

 

[Facetious]

National Security should mean nothing politically ! lol

Maybe that's the issue I have had with libs all along -

Everything Must Be Politicized !

Sigh

 

[gmaxman1212]

i always lean twords conservative

 

[BlueBalls]

I think making your mind up about an issue by taking sides, either conservative or liberal is stupid. Listen to the issue and then make up your mind, weather it is conservtive or liberal, dont be boxed into a specific group before you know the facts.

 

[scubamike]

Again, thanks everyone for all your comments and views. Just like how many liberal (errr progressive...sorry Friday) thinkers have expressed their views here, I feel it is only fair to also show the other side (darkside, right? hehe).

 

[scubamike]

All I will say is Winston churchill was right about the best arguement against democracy is spend 5 minutes with the average voter.Its you my friend who believe all the nonsense propaganda that you have been told.We invade people based on fabricated lies and you think we should be supported.The only reason we aren't opposed more is due to our strength and bullying.The idea that we are going to be destroyed by anyone in the middle east is prepostourous.
Oh and BTW the word people on the left prefer is progressive as compared to Liberal.
I'm done with it,have fun with your thread,maybe some others will bother to try to enlighten you.I wish them luck.:thumbsup:

You're always welcome back, bro! Look forward to speaking with you again
Oh and thanks about inquiring on the necessity of multiple quotes. I'm not familiar with that yet but will definitely look into using it more often!

 

[scubamike]

i always lean twords conservative

A few years ago I would have told you that is the right (pun!) way to think, but now I'm trying to keep my mind open and listen and read from who is worth it. IMO, Michael Moore is a clown. He is out there for the entertainment, fame, and making himself rich (another stupid white rich man haha!). On the other side, Ann Coulter is too psychotic for my views. When she called John Edwards a faggot, I didn't like that and thought that was completely uncalled for. I hate extremes

 

[meesterperfect]

I am a conservative.
Look up the definition of conservative and liberal.
Although things are not perfect by no means in the US today I feel that if a Democrat like Gore or Kerry was in office for the past 8 or 4 years that things would be worse, much worse, both economically and in national security.
When I hear the things that Democrats such as Ted Kennedy,Reid, Pelosi,Kerry, Gore, The Clintons, Edwards and quite a few other Democratic Senators have said and done over the past 5 years I wanna puke.
Its all anti-US, negative BS said and done only to promote their own political power,regardless of the consequences it has on the Country and the citizens.
Plus the people they allie n themselves with to me are usually misinformed screwheads with some kind of liberal guilt complexes.
Add to that the socialistic Tax systems most Dems want and promote are counter productive to say the least.
I believe that the money you earn should stay with you and your family and not to some irresponsible parasite.
I just can't relate to the Dems and I am against everything they stand for (which I have trouble figuring out what that is more often than not).
I am conservative

 

[Facetious]

I'm an economic pragmatist and a libertarian social, although I strongly disagree with the libertarians listlessness with respect to open border issues and the military.

 

[calpoon]

it's like on the boondocks where ann coulter is buddies with al sharpton and they just try and get people pissed off at each other so they can play sides and sell books.

whenever I see her on tv, I feel like it's the colbert report. I'm like, this has to be satire making fun of conservative party line. there's no way that this is real op ed.

 

[bombardier52]

I like where this thread is heading now.

I am not sure what to call myself because I think less government is better than more so I suppose I am a libertarian. Not too many viable libertarians to vote for though.

I know that I won't put up with politicians that are America haters for the purpose of politics. My grandmother always used to say it is a poor frog that can't praise his own pond and I believe that.

Our form of government is answerable to the people through elections but in between elections I think that you either support those elected or actually use the law to remove them if they are not doing what they were elected to do.