Deciding between Liberal and Conservative Politics

[scubamike]

Many of the threads on this website bash the American Government. I felt that it will be fair to apply a balance to show all of you some other views.

I have two films for you to watch:

"Michael Moore Hates America"

"Manufacturing Dissent"

These films I've found interesting. I've even watched "Farhenheit 911" to view Michael Moore's opinions and watched some of the documentary called "Frontline: Bush's War" recommended by AFA in another thread.

The most important thing is to view BOTH sides before making a decision on what to believe in. I consider myself Moderate (some views I lean to the left...some views I lean to the right).

I know some of you may hate me and call me stupid...and I respect that. You have the right to do that just as I have the right to share with you my thoughts.

cheers,
scubamike..

 

[VidKing]

Please provide a link to these videos.

 

[scubamike]

Please provide a link to these videos.

Unfortunately these videos aren't available like the Bush's War documentary but these are some links about them:

http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/

http://www.manufacturingdissentmovie.com/

 

[Facetious]

All told, a film is in no way how "I" have formulated my opinions.
Particularly coming from Michael Moore who, during this endless war, had insisted that he "didn't own one single share of stock". Mr. Moore uses duplicity of context to get away with much of what he does as we later found that he held many shares of Haliburton all along.
I'm sure those links are swept away by now :1orglaugh

If certain individuals here "hate" a moderate, it's their problem. :hatsoff:

 

[scubamike]

All told, a film is in no way how "I" have formulated my opinions.
Particularly coming from Michael Moore who, during this endless war, had insisted that he "didn't own one single share of stock". Mr. Moore uses duplicity of context to get away with much of what he does as we later found that he held many shares of Haliburton all along.
I'm sure those links are swept away by now :1orglaugh

If certain individuals here "hate" a moderate, it's their problem. :hatsoff:

Thanks for the feedback, Facetious.

If that is your point-of-view, I respect that.

 

[titsrock]

Conservatives have nothing to "hold their hat on to," basically. Conservatives had full control of the country from 2000-2006 and have nothing to show for it except an unsubstantiated war and economic misery. Deficits have exploded. The dollar is the new peso. Gas prices have gone nuclear. Layoffs have been happening in corporate America for the past 9 months. We are in an actual recession and headed for a depression if things don't turn around.

I'd like to know how you defend being a Conservative at this point in your life, what you feel has been "handled quite well" and why SHOULDN'T we give the Dems control of the Kingdom, if, for nothing else, then to turn around the aforementioned dilemmas using policies completely unlike anything implemented from a Repub point of view.

You can boo-hoo about Dems being "mean" here on this board. But, from my point of view, we've taken "Dubya's," and by extension, Repub shit for 7 years, screamed to everyone that "the SKY WILL FALL if we do X" [X=Any Dubya Idea] and only sat around to watch the sky fall down on our country as X blew up...basically.

What's wrong with Repubs sitting the next 4 years out and quietly following along if, for nothing else, because they realize their ideas have not turned out well and change is needed?

 

[scubamike]

Conservatives have nothing to "hold their hat on to," basically. Conservatives had full control of the country from 2000-2006 and have nothing to show for it except an unsubstantiated war and economic misery. Deficits have exploded. The dollar is the new peso. Gas prices have gone nuclear. Layoffs have been happening in corporate America for the past 9 months. We are in an actual recession and headed for a depression if things don't turn around.

I'd like to know how you defend being a Conservative at this point in your life, what you feel has been "handled quite well" and why SHOULDN'T we give the Dems control of the Kingdom, if, for nothing else, then to turn around the aforementioned dilemmas using policies completely unlike anything implemented from a Repub point of view.

You can boo-hoo about Dems being "mean" here on this board. But, from my point of view, we've taken "Dubya's," and by extension, Repub shit for 7 years, screamed to everyone that "the SKY WILL FALL if we do X" [X=Any Dubya Idea] and only sat around to watch the sky fall down on our country as X blew up...basically.

What's wrong with Repubs sitting the next 4 years out and quietly following along if, for nothing else, because they realize their ideas have not turned out well and change is needed?

Wow the opinions are getting meaner, but don't worry, I won't bite back

Thanks for your interest of the economy. I definitely hope that it will get better for those in need. The "Michael Moore Hates America" film illustrates some important points coming from people who live in places where the economy has gone bankrupt, such as the city Flint in Moore's movie "Roger and Me". Some people interviewed in that "dead city", as Michael Moore said, are not giving up. They are working hard and living their lives. They are doing their best to bring that city back. I find that very commendable.

 

[titsrock]

You didn't answer any of the questions I asked.

#1--What are the successes under George Bush's 2 terms that make you proud to be a Republican today?

#2--Do you consider the War on Terror to be on "the right track" today? Do you think this war is near being over or may never be over? Why haven't we pursued Osama bin Laden?

#3--Do you think the economy is turning around or still falling?

#4--Are you comfortable having a presidential candidate admit he isn't well informed on the economy and how to manage an economy?

 

[scubamike]

You didn't answer any of the questions I asked.

#1--What are the successes under George Bush's 2 terms that make you proud to be a Republican today?

#2--Do you consider the War on Terror to be on "the right track" today? Do you think this war is near being over or may never be over? Why haven't we pursued Osama bin Laden?

#3--Do you think the economy is turning around or still falling?

#4--Are you comfortable having a presidential candidate admit he isn't well informed on the economy and how to manage an economy?

#1--We freed two nations...Iraq and Afghanistan.

#2--War is hard to control. There will always be negative incidents happening because there are so many variables to account for in war, especially this assymetrical war, which means that we are not fighting another country wearing their own uniform like how we stand out, but we are battling an enemy in disguise. The enemy is hidden and can strike at any time. Sometimes their plans get foiled, sometimes they succeed. People will always die in war. We need to know that and respect the soldiers out there. I personally think that we improved greatly. Baghdad is much safer now. Most of the insurgents fled to Mosul. That will be the final battle in Iraq and will be in all the school books. As for Osama, I am pissed that he is still at large, of course. I definitely believe he's not in a better place though. I do believe that certain politics keep us from getting him. Probably some politics concerning boundaries of provinces in Pakistan or Afghanistan. He has to hide like a rat to survive. If he peeks outta that cave, byebye Osama!

#3--I do not know how to answer on the economy. I know that I work hard and make enough money to survive, so I'm thankful for that. One thing is that I don't expect the government to take care of me. That is my responsibility. If I was in New Orleans when Hurricane Katrina was on its way, I definitely would have done my best to get outta the way of that hellacious storm and not expect the government to protect me from unpredictable mother nature.

#4--Talking about a presidential candidate who you say isn't well informed on the economy, I'll have to assume that you're talking about Sen. McCain, right? At least I assume that because your tone is more liberal. As for that, I will check on that because I haven't heard him say that about having problems managing the economy. I appreciate you sharing that with me and will look into it.

Thanks for your interest in these matters and I appreciate your questions. If you don't like my answers, I do apologize but please remember that this is from my humble point of view.

 

[titsrock]

Regarding Osama bin Ladin--We know his terrorist group attacked us on 9/11. Bush announced "we will attack terrorists and those who harbor them." We "thought" we knew where he was at that time, in Afghanistan, and attacked Afghanistan in order to rid that country of al Qaeda and whomever helped them. We had Osama pinned down but we think he escaped to Pakistan. Why haven't we pursued him? Why give up? If Pakistan won't help us ferret him out then, so what? Why not consider them to be harboring him and we'll go in there with planes first and bomb him? Why have we given up? What's the excuse?

None of the reasons we went into Iraq were true or proved to be true. This is turning out to be an "OOPS" War that, for whatever reason, we continue to fight. Liberals, like me, will argue you and the Conservatives that it would've been cheaper just to leave Saddam where he was...isolated and ineffective. He atleast knew how to keep Shiites and Sunnis away from each other. We have no idea how to play peacekeeper in the Middle East. We never have done that before. Why would we know now?

John McCain admitted he doesn't know much about the economy but would "attract smart talented people." He admitted this in a Repub debate. I'm not making that up.

I agree somewhat about Katrina. The city of New Orleans did not keep the levy system "up to spec." The Army told the city the levies needed major money to refurbish to withstand a Hurricane beyond a Cat3. They didn't do shit. HOWEVER...it's not like you can just assume that millions of people have the access to transportation to leave a city in the hurry. Not everyone owns a car and not every city has enough busses. How far can a hundred thousand people walk?

I don't think 99% of Republicans give a shit about Iraq or Afghanistan. It would surprise me if they cared more about rebuilding those two countries then they did about their own country....

But the more times the Republican Party argues that we need to continue to spend $180billion a year on Iraq and yet bitch and moan about "domestic spending" in the U.S. is another vote that will be cast for a Democratic Presidential candidate, Senator, Governor, Congressperson across this country.

The majority of Americans care more about America then Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[titsrock]

scubamike--I've never called you an idiot. I don't know if you've said anything that warranted someone calling you an idiot. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. I haven't read anything "truly fresh and original" from you in arguing that we, here in Freeones Land, need to consider voting for Repubs in November.

I have much, much more "issue ammo" at my disposal too. Let's talk about supporting the Troops, for example. Republicans are usually the first people to beat the war drum and call "peace people" cowards...but Republicans don't exactly care to support the troops medically and educationally when the war ends....Walter Reed ring a bell?

 

[scubamike]

Regarding Osama bin Ladin--We know his terrorist group attacked us on 9/11. Bush announced "we will attack terrorists and those who harbor them." We "thought" we knew where he was at that time, in Afghanistan, and attacked Afghanistan in order to rid that country of al Qaeda and whomever helped them. We had Osama pinned down but we think he escaped to Pakistan. Why haven't we pursued him? Why give up? If Pakistan won't help us ferret him out then, so what? Why not consider them to be harboring him and we'll go in there with planes first and bomb him? Why have we given up? What's the excuse?

Like I said earlier, this manhunt is above us. It's very political. I wish he will be caught also and am frustrated about that process.

None of the reasons we went into Iraq were true or proved to be true. This is turning out to be an "OOPS" War that, for whatever reason, we continue to fight. Liberals, like me, will argue you and the Conservatives that it would've been cheaper just to leave Saddam where he was...isolated and ineffective. He atleast knew how to keep Shiites and Sunnis away from each other. We have no idea how to play peacekeeper in the Middle East. We never have done that before. Why would we know now?

I have to agree to disagree with you on this one. I feel things are getting better in Iraq and the Iraqi people are starting to stand up against the insurgents. They want peace and are sick of living in fear.

John McCain admitted he doesn't know much about the economy but would "attract smart talented people." He admitted this in a Repub debate. I'm not making that up.

I believe you on this. I will definitely look it up

I agree somewhat about Katrina. The city of New Orleans did not keep the levy system "up to spec." The Army told the city the levies needed major money to refurbish to withstand a Hurricane beyond a Cat3. They didn''t do shit. HOWEVER...it's not like you can just assume that millions of people have the access to transportation to leave a city in the hurray. Not everyone owns a car and not every city has enough busses. How far can millions or people walk?

I said earlier that if I was in that situation, I will TRY to get out. If I don't have a car, I'll try getting a bus, taxi, hitchhike, walk, etc. I will not give up and sit on my butt waiting for the government to save me. I do understand that I cannot speak for everyone. I bet there were handicapped people who couldn't move like other people can move and that was tragic...an unfortunate truth.

I don't think 99% of Republicans give a shit about Iraq or Afghanistan. It would surprise me if they cared more about rebuilding those two countries then they did about their own country....

You bet 99% of Republicans don't care about Iraq or Afghanistan? Pretty bold statement. I know that they care enough to bring the countries to peace and help their people lead their own country. Again, I have to disagree with you

 

[scubamike]

scubamike--I've never called you an idiot. I don't know if you've said anything that warranted someone calling you an idiot. Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. I haven't read anything "truly fresh and original" from you in arguing that we, here in Freeones Land, need to consider voting for Repubs in November.

I have much, much more "issue ammo" at my disposal too. Let's talk about supporting the Troops, for example. Republicans are usually the first people to beat the war drum and call "peace people" cowards...but Republicans don't exactly care to support the troops medically and educationally when the war ends....Walter Reed ring a bell?

I appreciate your professionalism in words also. As for considering voters to vote righty, I'm not campaigning for Sen McCain, that is his job. I'm just expressing my views on what many of us talk about in Freeones land .

I bet you have alot of ammo alright. You do sound very knowledgeable. I respect your tone much more than the "I wanna kill Bush" people. What happened in Walter Reed was an unfortunate incident. Many patients had to suffer through that and those that were responsible were rightfully punished. The hospital learned from that and improved.

 

[calpoon]

fair and balanced is actually discussing the issues, not what fox news says. or the new York times, for that matter.

I don't really give a shit what is or what isn't "liberal" or "conservative."

everyone knows that I am highly critical of many policies of the US government and of Big Business. and some would call that a conservative POV, while others call it liberal.

one thing that I always say is that people should be held accountable for their actions. In the words that spiderman lives by: with great power comes great responsibility. Those who have great power and great responsibility have a lot to be held accountable for.

I welcome debate, and my intention in discussing politics is to get to the heart of the issues. I think that most people on here are about that.

I don't just say "america sucks and if you disagree with me you are an idiot."

on the same hand, it's petty and stupid to say that everyone who is critical of america "hates america" or "supports terrorism."

these knee jerk responses are used by people that are intentionally trying to manipulate debate for the sole purpose of stopping discourse. they are the real enemy, the one's that don't want you to think about things. And they aren't worried about lib or conserv either.

 

[D-rock]

Why do so many people feel the need to be one or the other? I like the fact I'm independent. It would be better if people acted and thought independently instead of mindlessly following ideology. Of course having reasonable voting options that reflected that would be nice.

 

[Phaeton]

Why do so many people feel the need to be one or the other? I like the fact I'm independent.

Agreed.
U.S. Americans don't have to and shouldn't pick sides. Stay on the fence, in the middle, and choose whose best, not by the color of their party, but the strength of their arguments.

 

[squallumz]

to entire fucking problem with politics and thing like this topic is that you shouldn't label your feelings to an entire group.

if u feel a certain way about something, choose it, you do not have to follow a certain platform if u dont agree with the whole thing. think independent and be true to yourself!

 

[Facetious]

^ Couldn't agree more !:thumbsup:

#1--What are the successes under George Bush's 2 terms that make you proud to be a Republican today?

Bush does not represent the values of mainstream conservatives. I don't know of one single so called conservative that appreciates this s.o.b.
So don't frame conservatives or republicans as lock step in unison with this guy.

It's sort of how you would likely suggest that Obama's opponents not equate Barak with the standoffishness displayed by Dr. Wright.

Is that fair ?

 

[Friday on my mind]

Many of the threads on this website bash the American Government. I felt that it will be fair to apply a balance to show all of you some other views.

I have two films for you to watch:

"Michael Moore Hates America"

"Manufacturing Dissent"

These films I've found interesting. I've even watched "Farhenheit 911" to view Michael Moore's opinions and watched some of the documentary called "Frontline: Bush's War" recommended by AFA in another thread.

The most important thing is to view BOTH sides before making a decision on what to believe in. I consider myself Moderate (some views I lean to the left...some views I lean to the right).

I know some of you may hate me and call me stupid...and I respect that. You have the right to do that just as I have the right to share with you my thoughts.

cheers,
scubamike..

Scuba what I would say is I would hope people vote what they think is their interests and the interests of people like them.Which for the majority of the country which is middle class or lower would probably not be the republicans/conservatives.When I hear pubs(republicans for short) talk about how bad class warfare is I laugh because in my mind thats what they have been about for a long time.They support policys that benefit the few at the top at the expense of the majority.Real income for the majority of people in this country has been declining since the early 70s while for the wealthy it has grown enormously.The way they have done this is to constantly play groups off each other,middle class whites should fear minorities,foreigners etc.All the while it is corporations and there desire to maximize profits that is really the big enemy of all of us.Just look at the public perception of unions which is basically negative.Many do not realize without unions you would never have had things like the 40 hr work week ,overtime and many other benefits.Employers and the govt didn't do those things out of the goodness of their hearts ,they did them because people banded together into unions and fought for them and forced them on employers.By yourself you have little ability to force anything.
On Michale Moore I went and looked at IMBD to see what they said about the 2 films your referenced and I must say they were not very well reviewed.And the idea that he hates America is just a slogan that has no merit IMO.Just because you criticize things you see as unjust is not only not hating america it is being a good citizen.I would say forget Moore the person and lets focus on the truth or not of his movies.The three of his movies I have seen Roger and me,Fahrenheit 911 and Sicko were to me very accurate and true.Might be more usefull to dipute that IMO than to attack him as a person which is often what happens.

#1--We freed two nations...Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sorry I don't see it that way at all.Freed them from what,themselves?
It is not our place to decide who people should have as leaders and governments.I don't like George but I don't want some foreigners coming in and seizing him so that we can hang him.We are foreign invaders just as we were in Vietnam.We are in Iraq for one reason OIL.

^ Couldn't agree more !:thumbsup:




Bush does not represent the values of mainstream conservatives. I don't know of one single so called conservative that appreciates this s.o.b.
So don't frame conservatives or republicans as lock step in unison with this guy.

It's sort of how you would likely suggest that Obama's opponents not equate Barak with the standoffishness displayed by Dr. Wright.

Is that fair ?

While conservatives may be able to distance themselves from GWB,republicans are going to have to accept his legacy.And I see nothing that says they are trying to distance themselves from him.I wonder, if GWB and McCain aren't what conservatives want then just what do they want?Neitheir party can afford to just pander totally to the extremes and hope to win the support of the middle.

 

[Facial_King]

This could be an interesting thread, although I kind of object to the title of it, which makes it sound like ideologies are chosen like frozen pizzas at the supermarket.... For now, though, I'll just read...