Batman is dead.

Speaking of being outclassed by even more powerful villains etc.; is it just my imagination, or have comics got some sort of arms race going on? I've never actually read Marvel, but the last time I read something by DC (which admittedly was a quite a while ago), Superman was basically juggling planets. It all seemed rather ridiculous, and I have no idea how (or if) they can write decent stories. Superman, for example, is the proverbial do-no-wrong good guy, practically immortal, and a bloody Swiss army knife of superpowers. How do you write an interesting story with a guy like that?
That's the Silver Age Superman for ya. Blowing out stars, and juggling planets like nobodys business. Eventually, all that, and Earth 1-1038465, got to be a bit too much and DC restarted Superman during the mid 1980's with John Byrne's "Man of Steel".

But here lately, DC seems to have fallen back in love with the Silver Age. Sooo .... here we go again.
 
I don't read comics any more but like to follow up on it once in awhile, but Batman's a deus ex machina in the comics, so I'm not too angered by his death, but more or less how they did it. I could swear Batman and Darkseid had something along the lines of the same confrontation in a previous Justice League comic, but I think Bats died first (he had nothing to kill Darkseid with).

They'll bring him back through a convenient plot device. As for Captain America, I'm quite content with Bucky as Cap, they've done a great job with him so far, and I hope he stays as Cap for a long time.
 

om3ga

It's good to be the king...
I'm soooo glad I stopped collecting comics...

As if DC are going to permanently kill off a franchise that spawned many successful movies (apart from that stinker with Arnie)....:rolleyes:
 
To all the people who stopped reading comics, can I suggest a comic without crossovers and omnipotent heroes?

Tarot: witch of the black rose

written and drawn by Jim Balent.

Besides not having any crossovers or omnipotent heroes, another + point is that the further the story progresses, the more you get to see of the main heroine.

Google it.
 
Warning: Random rant ahead. Read at own risk

The only reason I'd start reading comics again (that is, more often than once every 6 months) is if they start focusing more on the character rather than the abilities. The term hero has been watered down to such an extent in real life that it has all but lost its meaning. Get a cat out of a tree and you're a hero. By comparison, heroes in comics actually do rise above the pack, though in a rather flamboyant way in many cases (much to the spandex industry's delight). What bothers me is how most heroes seems to be defined. It seems to have more to do with the brute force they have at their disposal, than the spirit and determination.

The primary reason why I dislike Superman (and those like him, though Superman is obviously the archetype) is because, essentially, he's embodies the idea that powers is what makes someone a hero. I well and truly hate that line of thought. By pure chance, he was born on another planet, got a bunch of really ridiculously overpowered abilities, and suddenly he's the worlds greatest hero? He's the all-American good guy with a slice of apple pie, kissing babies and being a role model. What the hell? Am I supposed to idealize someone whose primary credential is being an alien? How could he possibly inspire anyone to be all good like him, when one of the primary reason why he can be so good is because he was born a friggin demi-god? The writers didn't even have the common decency to give him a flaw. Oh sure, everyone have their metaphorical kryptonite, which in Superman's case is actual kryptonite, but that's just how you go about doing damage. What I care about is a character flaw. But is he dumb? No. Ugly? No. Cruel, arrogant, selfish, allergic to clam or anything negative really? No. In fact, in most cases, he's supposedly the opposite (I'm not sure how he feels about clam though). Whenever he does something wrong, it seems to be because he's put in impossible situations and because he's too "good" to do the right thing (now there's a debate: the difference between "good" and "right"). Asking for him to be more human when he's clearly an alien seems a bit of an oxymoron I suppose, but I see nothing wrong with asking for him to be less of a Mary Sue.
The thing is, as I see it, it's easy to be nice and noble and risk your life when you know that the chances of you actually getting hurt is slim to none. Of course, that chance is forcibly increased by the writers who then add in ridiculously overpowered villains to counter the ridiculously overpowered heroes (apparently, the cold war never ended in the comic universe), which only further servers to highlight my original point; that heroism in comics is more about who has the biggest stick than who struggles and sacrifices the most for a cause they truly believe in.

Batman in comparison (oh yeah, there's more), is in many ways an archetype for the opposite ends of the spectrum. He didn't get anything for free, all his abilities he acquired through blood, sweat and tears. He goes out and risks his life on a daily basis, and unlike some of his colleagues that can only be hurt by exotic materials, powerful magics or other rare items/circumstances, all it would theoretically take to put an end to Batman's career is a sufficiently heavy rock and half-decent aim. He is clearly human and has several flaws. He's an arrogant, rude and manipulative bastard. You'll never see him kissing babies or being a role model, and he doesn't care what people think. He does what he believes is the right thing and isn't afraid to get his hands dirty, even if the people he saves will hate him for it. But despite all this, he does have a moral code and judges himself more harshly than anyone. While his behavior may not be very noble, his cause is.

That is not to say that Superman is all bad and Batman is great. In fact, I mostly used them as an example for the general idea I see behind them. Batman certainly has his less appealing sides, such as the fairly overdone dark "I am vengeance/the night/Batman" attitude. His abilities have also more than once been pushed towards and beyond the superhuman borderline, which I'm not very happy about. Anyway, the main point is that, as I see it, Superman (and those like him) are heroes primarily because of who their parents were or whatever type of radiation they were exposed to, while Batman (ditto) are heroes because of how they fought to rise above. If I hadn't made it clear yet, I much prefer the latter definition, because ultimately, I think what defines a person is not what he can do, but how hard he tries. It's not that I hate all superpowers, I recognize their use for spicing up the narrative, but they should be of reasonable scope and should never take precedence over the heroes that wields them. In many cases, such as Superman juggling planets mentioned above, that's exactly what I feel happened. Then again, perhaps I got the whole thing wrong, given the very limited number of comic books I've read the past 14 years. *Shrugs*

Phew, that was longer than I had planned, and probably makes me look like a lot more enthusiastic than I think am. Oh well.


PS. Is it just me, or do a lot of comic heroes, DC in particular, have really silly names?
 
The only reason I'd start reading comics again (that is, more often than once every 6 months) is if they start focusing more on the character rather than the abilities. The term hero has been watered down to such an extent in real life that it has all but lost its meaning. Get a cat out of a tree and you're a hero. By comparison, heroes in comics actually do rise above the pack, though in a rather flamboyant way in many cases (much to the spandex industry's delight). What bothers me is how most heroes seems to be defined. It seems to have more to do with the brute force they have at their disposal, than the spirit and determination.

I don't really like Superman that much either, but my favorite stories of Superman are not the ones where he uses his power the most. It's not even the ones where there are good villains that go against him, or the villains and him are outsmarting each other. It's the ones that play off the fact that even though he has ridiculously powerful abilities he's a black and white type of person in a world that isn‘t always that way. He might be the ultimate "good guy" in the typical sense of the term, but he also has to live in a world where everyone around him and the society he lives in have become a shade of grey and don't always fit his ideals. The stories where he deals with and overcomes that while sticking to his ideas are the best ones in my opinion. In some ways I don't totally agree with you about why Superman is a superhero. I think even since the beginning he has seen it as his duty to do what he does, and feels strongly about the people he protects. It wasn't like he found out he had powers and just decided to use them for the hell of it.
 
I don't really like Superman that much either, but my favorite stories of Superman are not the ones where he uses his power the most.
...
It wasn't like he found out he had powers and just decided to use them for the hell of it.

But he shouldn't be able to stick to those ideals. They are impossibly Utopian and shouldn't survive first contact with reality. But even in his perfection there can be no flaw. He does stick to them and actually gets away with it, and the reason is not because he is an exceptional person, but because he's basically a nice guy with abilities that he got for free. If he had not been given those abilities, he'd be a nice guy and nothing more. It bothers me that the epitome of a hero is apparently someone who was given enough brute force to be perfect, rather than someone who strives to reach it through hard work and discipline. The former is unattainable and based on pure chance, and I don't see how we can model ourselves after it. The latter can be done, it's just exceptionally rare.

Oh, and yes, I've read Nietzsche. Perhaps a bit too much.
 
The primary reason why I dislike Superman (and those like him, though Superman is obviously the archetype) is because, essentially, he's embodies the idea that powers is what makes someone a hero. I well and truly hate that line of thought. By pure chance, he was born on another planet, got a bunch of really ridiculously overpowered abilities, and suddenly he's the worlds greatest hero? He's the all-American good guy with a slice of apple pie, kissing babies and being a role model. What the hell? Am I supposed to idealize someone whose primary credential is being an alien? How could he possibly inspire anyone to be all good like him, when one of the primary reason why he can be so good is because he was born a friggin demi-god? The writers didn't even have the common decency to give him a flaw. Oh sure, everyone have their metaphorical kryptonite, which in Superman's case is actual kryptonite, but that's just how you go about doing damage. What I care about is a character flaw. But is he dumb? No. Ugly? No. Cruel, arrogant, selfish, allergic to clam or anything negative really? No. In fact, in most cases, he's supposedly the opposite (I'm not sure how he feels about clam though). Whenever he does something wrong, it seems to be because he's put in impossible situations and because he's too "good" to do the right thing (now there's a debate: the difference between "good" and "right"). Asking for him to be more human when he's clearly an alien seems a bit of an oxymoron I suppose, but I see nothing wrong with asking for him to be less of a Mary Sue.

I think a lot of the Superman hate comes from the movies' Messianic outlook of him and the comic book writer's lack of fresh stories for him. Anyways I used to think exactly like what I bolded in your quote; but think of it this way: Superman is not so much an alien, but an immigrant who came to America. Like millions of other people who came to America. Who want to live the American dream. You can be inspired by the fact that he embodies just that, someone who lived up to the ideals offered by the country. As for flaws, he does have plenty, but they're mental over physical. What I like about some Superman stories is that they try to show the stress he feels over not being able to help everyone, or the fact that people have become so reliant on his being there to fix their problems, etc. I think the Superman 90s animated series really did a good job of showing that especially since they toned his powers down drastically.

He is inspiring in the sense that the character doesn't refer to himself as a "god", but as a "man". For all his might, he still thinks of himself as a simple farmboy from Kansas. He's not the Jesus the movies make him out to be, but is still an inspiration. Even Superman isn't perfect in his own mind, and while you can't relate to the character's powers, you can relate to his beliefs and aspire to be like Superman. People don't have to be 100% like him, but it's good to have some qualities. And it's like you said:

I think what defines a person is not what he can do, but how hard he tries.

And oh yeah, I always thought the end of this Youtube Marvel/DC action figure video summed up Superman perfectly in the eyes of everybody else, if you haven't seen it, it is pretty good for all its comedy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSsWVwFpNzs
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
I think Spawn killed Batman once too.

There was an ill-conceived crossover between Batman and Spawn.

Batman wasn't killed by Spawn.

At the end, Batman did hit Spawn in the face with a Batarang. :D

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I think a lot of the Superman hate comes from the movies' Messianic outlook of him and the comic book writer's lack of fresh stories for him. Anyways I used to think exactly like what I bolded in your quote; but think of it this way: Superman is not so much an alien, but an immigrant who came to America.

Without Superman I doubt comics would be around. Superman was the first comic superhero.
People hate what they don't understand. Also, Superman can beat their favorite character. :D :tongue:

Superman is from another planet, making him an alien, not an immigrant. :rolleyes:
 
There was an ill-conceived crossover between Batman and Spawn.

2 of em actually. The one from DC Comics wasnt good. And the Image version was atleast entertaining. Art by Mcfarlane and written by pre-goddamn Batman, Frank Miller.

And I believe the latter sold alot better too. But go figure. :D
 

Will E Worm

Conspiracy...
2 of em actually. The one from DC Comics wasnt good. And the Image version was atleast entertaining. Art by Mcfarlane and written by pre-goddamn Batman, Frank Miller.

And I believe the latter sold alot better too. But go figure. :D

Yes, two. But, it's a crossover. That was explanation enough. :tongue:

Both companies could have done a lot better.
The art wasn't bad. There wasn't much of a story.

Frank Miller has lost his touch and McFarlane just wanted money.
That's why he's quit drawing his own comic.

Unlike Erik Lasen who continues to draw, write, and color his own comic.
Larsen truly wants to do what he does.

Mcfarlane just wanted to use the industry for his own gain.
He's not the comic creator I thought he was.
 
Yes, two. But, it's a crossover. That was explanation enough. :tongue:

2 crossovers with completely different stories and art. Wouldnt want the kids thinking theres only 1 crossover to get (if they actually want to seek this stuff out) would we? :laugh:

Both companies could have done a lot better.
The art wasn't bad. There wasn't much of a story.

Frank Miller has lost his touch and McFarlane just wanted money.
That's why he's quit drawing his own comic.

As far as doing better goes, I'll give em both a pass. It was afterall the 1990's. The decade where art somehow became more important than overall story. And it certainly wasnt like crossovers like these were the only thing stinking up the racks. Far from it. :rolleyes:
 
Batman is dead. His character, however, is still slated to appear in at least 3 more major motion pictures over the next 8 to 10 years. :1orglaugh
 
I think a lot of the Superman hate comes from the movies' Messianic outlook of him and the comic book writer's lack of fresh stories for him. Anyways I used to think exactly like what I bolded in your quote; but think of it this way: Superman is not so much an alien, but an immigrant who came to America. Like millions of other people who came to America. Who want to live the American dream. You can be inspired by the fact that he embodies just that, someone who lived up to the ideals offered by the country.

Bordering on uncomfortably patriotic here (I'm not a fan of embedding patriotic/religious messages in narrative, by the way), but my point is that yes, he embodies that ideal. He's the representation of that which people should strive to be. That's the problem. He essentially managed to reach an impossible ideal, and more troubling, the reason why he's a representation of an ideal human is because he's not human. Personally, I feel it diminishes the entire struggle. Not just for other comic heroes, but for real people out in the real world that tries to be better. No one will ever reach the ideal of course, but I think that's sort of the point.

As for flaws, he does have plenty, but they're mental over physical. What I like about some Superman stories is that they try to show the stress he feels over not being able to help everyone, or the fact that people have become so reliant on his being there to fix their problems, etc. I think the Superman 90s animated series really did a good job of showing that especially since they toned his powers down drastically.

Yes, well, I'm not sure I count guilt over not being perfect enough as an actual flaw. If anything, it just increases my annoyance. For once, make him do something selfish, feel satisfaction over letting the bad guy get hurt, anything.

Never saw the animated series, by the way.
 
Batman is dead. His character, however, is still slated to appear in at least 3 more major motion pictures over the next 8 to 10 years. :1orglaugh

So he's dead like Tupac or Biggie Smalls then, in that after death, he still won't quit producing material?


H
 
Ok ok thats all good and fine, then tell me why when I was watching cartoons while eating frosted flakes with extra sugar, was there a sweeeeet trailer for a new Batman cartoon? It was for the new Batman the Brave and the Bold series or something. Looks kinda cartoony but the trailer was so cool it had some awesome metal with Batman and other folks like Deadman and Green Arrow and Blue Beetle and stuff. And I reallly want that trailer and I cants finds it nowhere. Oy i need help...too much sugar. Geez I really gotta grow up and goto sleep now. buh bye.
 
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