A World Without Organized Religion

[PlumpRump]

If there were no organized religion,we as a people would just find something else to fight over.It's just human nature.

[video]http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155423/atheist-war[/video]

 

[Will E Worm]

Duly expected, noted, and disregarded.

:tongue:

Sigmund Freud was a fraud. Most people are past him by now. :tongue:

 

[winterwarz]

On what government would this religion-less world stand upon. Science?

 

[lurkingdirk]

I disagree, mostly semantically; I see 'religion' as a dogmatic doctrine characterized by a faith in something of a higher power. Everyone has at least a philosophy, however - the main difference, as I'm using it, is a philosophy requires no faith. A religion is a philosophy, but not all philosophies are religions...this is how I see it, anyway.

So many people who call themselves Christians have little to no faith. For so many Christians, their religion is much more like a philosophy. I think that is true of a huge number of Americans - they talk about a Christian Ethic that drives politics, the creation of laws, and so forth. However, they are unable to articulate why they think some of these things, where the origin of their beliefs are ("The bible." Where in the bible? "Oh, I have no idea. I just bet it is in there somewhere"). That's not faith, it's just going with the prevalent belief structure. That's not faith, it's accepting a philosophy.

But, as you pointed out, this is a semantic argument, and one best had over beer or Scotch.

As much as I'd like to disagree, I'm not sure that I can; all I can do at this point is ask why: Why aren't people strong enough to stand on their own?

Sigmund Freud wrote a whole book more or less on the subject: The Future Of An Illusion. I read a couple excerpts some years back when I was studying this topic, but never got around to reading the whole thing. I should fix that...

It's a good book, and well worth reading.

 

[Jagger69]

The Demon-Haunted World[/u], Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion, and/or Christopher Hitchens' God Is Not Great? I'd be curious to gather any opinions, if any, on these three and how they might go together as a platform.

I have read every book that Carl Sagan ever wrote and he absolutely and very scientifically tears down the foundation of religion in a most convincing manner (surprise!) in The Demon-Haunted World. It dovetails perfectly with The Dragons of Eden. I highly recommend either book. :thumbsup: I will check out the other two you mentioned.....have not read either.

 

[zeeblofowl_1969]

I have a dream.......

 

[Jagger69]

Interesting to discuss, but this coule never happen. Even if contemporary religions were all eradicated, humans would construct something else to replace it, and that new creation would be religion of some sort. Look at the Native North American society - they had no Christian contact, but had created various intricate religions. Their religions, which developed through the generations, were central to their society. Nearly everything had a religious significance.

Those who believe they have no religion are deluded. Everyone ascribes to some type of religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Humanist, etc. etc. etc.. Something is central in your life, and there is some form of worship. For many people, work fulfills this basic need.

So, I think that a world with no religion would be a pretty scarey place. Everyone would be seeking desperately for something to believe in, something to cleave to, and those who seek to exploit and take power would have an easy way to do so. Think Nazi Germany, and you'll get some idea of that which I speak.

It is part of human nature to not only seek a reason for being but, in a much more intrinsic and primordial sense, to seek a way to explain the unexplainable. We've all heard or read about the "Cargo Cults"....subsistence-level Pacific islanders who worshiped airplanes that were used by the Allies in WWII. No one with any knowledge of the true origin of those planes could ever be persuaded to worship them....and yet, those islanders were absolutely convinced that they were supernatural. The other primary driver that encourages man to form religions and very much in tune with the unexplainable is the mystery surrounding the death experience.

It would be interesting to know how religion would have evolved if somehow we were all immortal and there was no afterlife to ponder. Two things for sure....there most certainly would be no Catholic Church (nor, by transference, ANY Christian faith for that matter!) since, without its value as the powerful tool that everyone from Constantine to Francis II has used with impunity to subjugate the masses over the past 2 millennia, it would have had no practical political purpose and its small group of early devotees would quite likely have been given the sharp side of a Roman gladius and been subsequently and permanently wiped out. Secondly, there most certainly would be no Islamic faith either since, in spite of its innumerable political clashes with Christianity over the centuries, in a very parallel and congruent manner it too has been used as a means to control and dominate the general population by caliph and ayatollah alike for hundreds of years. Just stop and think for a minute about all the many millions of humans that have either died or been killed over the centuries in the name of Jesus or Mohammed!

I'm not certain that the world would be a better place without all religion but I think it's a pretty safe bet we'd all be better served without Christianity or Islam. JMO of course....no offense meant to anyone of faith.

 

[Legzman]

a world without organized religious would be much more peaceful. Those religious nutjobs are fuckin crazy!!!

 

[lurkingdirk]

It is part of human nature to not only seek a reason for being but, in a much more intrinsic and primordial sense, to seek a way to explain the unexplainable. We've all heard or read about the "Cargo Cults"....subsistence-level Pacific islanders who worshiped airplanes that were used by the Allies in WWII. No one with any knowledge of the true origin of those planes could ever be persuaded to worship them....and yet, those islanders were absolutely convinced that they were supernatural. The other primary driver that encourages man to form religions and very much in tune with the unexplainable is the mystery surrounding the death experience.

It would be interesting to know how religion would have evolved if somehow we were all immortal and there was no afterlife to ponder. Two things for sure....there most certainly would be no Catholic Church (nor, by transference, ANY Christian faith for that matter!) since, without its value as the powerful tool that everyone from Constantine to Francis II has used with impunity to subjugate the masses over the past 2 millennia, it would have had no practical political purpose and its small group of early devotees would quite likely have been given the sharp side of a Roman gladius and been subsequently and permanently wiped out. Secondly, there most certainly would be no Islamic faith either since, in spite of its innumerable political clashes with Christianity over the centuries, in a very parallel and congruent manner it too has been used as a means to control and dominate the general population by caliph and ayatollah alike for hundreds of years. Just stop and think for a minute about all the many millions of humans that have either died or been killed over the centuries in the name of Jesus or Mohammed!

I'm not certain that the world would be a better place without all religion but I think it's a pretty safe bet we'd all be better served without Christianity or Islam. JMO of course....no offense meant to anyone of faith.

While I know you're a smart guy, and I think I have demonstrated to you that you have my respect, I must respectfully disagree with you on your final point.

Yes, much that is destructive has been orchestrated through Christianity and Islam, but there has been at least as much that is productive which developed through those faiths as well. Look at the development of the arts - in Western culture, the contribution of Christianity to the development of the arts is indisputable. Even with the religious restrictions placed on the arts through movements such as the Council of Trent, or the Diet of Worms, the patronage and sustainability of the arts in Christian culture is amazing. And, in many situations, it continues to be so.

 

[Little Red Wagon Repairman]

If religion did not exist man would find another reason to kill man until no one exists.

 

[Jagger69]

While I know you're a smart guy, and I think I have demonstrated to you that you have my respect, I must respectfully disagree with you on your final point.

Yes, much that is destructive has been orchestrated through Christianity and Islam, but there has been at least as much that is productive which developed through those faiths as well. Look at the development of the arts - in Western culture, the contribution of Christianity to the development of the arts is indisputable. Even with the religious restrictions placed on the arts through movements such as the Council of Trent, or the Diet of Worms, the patronage and sustainability of the arts in Christian culture is amazing. And, in many situations, it continues to be so.

The regard is mutual as I'm sure you know and I am in no way discounting the contributions of Christian origin in the areas of arts and culture. Obviously, there can be no question that Christian themes were at the very epicenter of the Renaissance from that aspect. However, rarely if ever was the flourishing of the arts a result of direct involvement or encouragement by the Roman church. Rather, such cultural advances normally took place as a result of individual brilliance that was often inspired by and either had the blessing of or, at the very least, the lack of interference from the Catholic Church. In retrospect, had in fact there been no Christian faith apparatus (aka the Catholic Church) in place to oversee and govern events as they transpired during that period, there is no way to measure what the eventual development of the arts might have been. It's possible that cultural enlightenment might have actually been accelerated in some instances without the encumbrances that the church instituted. Certainly, from a scientific aspect, the church was an extremely repressive and reactionary mechanism that greatly hindered technological and intellectual progress (i.e. Copernicus, Galileo, Leonardo, etc) during that era. Heretics in general were frequently excommunicated and often tortured and executed at the whim of the local papal governance throughout Europe during that period as well. Certainly, I believe that it can be accurately stated that scientific advances would have been much more rapid in their development had the Catholic Church not impeded that progress.

I would say that, from a strictly personal viewpoint, the direct contributions made by the Catholic Church to the advancement of culture and society as a whole are far outweighed by the obstacles and hindrances to said advancement. History is rife with examples where enlightened and intellectual thought was struck down time and time again by the papacy.

Again, no offense intended to the Christian faithful. I am speaking strictly from a societal and historical perspective, not a theological one. We can argue that in another thread.