Socialism

Theopolis Q. Hossenffer

I am in America, not of it.
A question for those of you who are completely opposed to any level of Socialism. I imagine that at this point you must admit that the United States is at least partially socialistic. Medical, Medicaid, Social Security, etc are all programs that redistribute wealth. I know other countries have varying levels of socialism but am only really familiar with here. My question is regarding the Coronavirus Stimulus package passed by Congress and signed by The Donald. What will you do(those who are opposed to the whole idea of free money for anyone) with the money and any further packages that might come along? Will you reject it, not deposit it in your account, send it back as a donation to the government or? Do you think anyone who did not plan for the future should be SOL in bad times such as this? What about undercapitalized business? Should they be allowed to fail and maybe reorganize under Bankruptcy laws. I remember when the Great Recession occurred the major complaint that I heard from my then Republican acquaintances(now Trumpistas) was that that should be exactly what should occur and they they can either make it or not. And would you be worried about demonstrations and disruptions maybe even Food Riots in society? I know many people fear the Government taking over Society completely and taking all your hard earned things. And giving them to others who perhaps have not worked as hard as you have. So, what do you think?
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
A question for those of you who are completely opposed to any level of Socialism.

Completely? Any? Oh. Can't help you with that one. In fact, I can't say that I know anyone who'd fall into that category. People who hold extreme ideological views tend to only exist on college campuses and mental hospitals (kinda the same thing, if you think about it :p ) - I also tend to think the same way about those who buy into the current bifurcated climate.

I think the great challenge in this day and time is finding a practical and rational balance between these two economic systems. Something that provides necessary services for the public good and provides for those who (truly) can't do for themselves or who've served the public, while at the same time, not doing harm or providing disincentives to work, productivity and innovation.

As far as I know, there's never been a case where any pure economic system has survived for very long. Pure or laissez faire capitalism doesn't work broadly, especially not in larger, diverse economies. And the very same is true of pure socialism or Marxism - even when it's propped up by vast, nationalized resources (like in Venezuela).

So I can't say that it's socialism, or any other economic system, that I'm totally opposed to. My opposition is to the broad concept of a nanny state. And it's the (power hungry) people who attempt to sell that kool-aid to thirsty people that I have no use for.
 
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Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Thanks, Bubb. I don't guess we have the :hatsoff: smilie anymore. Oh well.

I know that this is just a sub-forum on a porn board, but I still think that it's more interesting when we can come here and discuss things with people, whether we agree or disagree with them.

Good talking to you. Hopefully more people will chime in. It's a good topic, IMO.

P.S. Wonder why Rick Santelli (supposed inspiration for the TEA Party) and Charlie Gasparino aren't crying and whining now, like they were 10 or so years ago? ;)
 

Torre82

Moderator \ Jannie
Staff member
I think Steinbeck.
“And the great owners, who must lose their land in an upheaval, the great owners with access to history, with eyes to read history and to know the great fact: when property accumulates in too few hands it is taken away. And that companion fact: when a majority of the people are hungry and cold they will take by force what they need. And the little screaming fact that sounds through all history: repression works only to strengthen and knit the repressed. The great owners ignored the three cries of history. The land fell into fewer hands, the number of the dispossessed increased, and every effort of the great owners was directed at repression. The money was spent for arms, for gas to protect the great holdings, and spies were sent to catch the murmuring of revolt so that it might be stamped out. The changing economy was ignored, plans for the change ignored; and only means to destroy revolt were considered, while the causes of revolt went on.”

I do not know the hows or whens, only that only momentous, chaotic upheaval is already happening. Things are crumbling. People who would not have listened to you and considered your point.. are now forced to see the failings of capitalism and the intervention of socialist policy on EVERY LEVEL.

But it is still a depressing, unmotivated period of time where it is easy to lose sight of what needs to be done.
So.. in a way, I really dont know what to say.

I think people have to realize there is enough for everybody, and that it isnt unfair to share with their neighbors. Which is odd, considering how human it is to feel that way.
 
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Theopolis Q. Hossenffer

I am in America, not of it.
I can't help but wonder if we are just returning to what I call the Standard Human Condition. With the exception of the last 100 years or so if you think about it, there has always been a very small portion of people at the top(Kings, Emperors, Wealthy Merchants, whoever) then just below them a modest group of Middle class folks(Dukes, Earls, moderately wealthy merchants to care for the needs of the top, etc) and at the bottom 90-95 % absolutely dirt poor. Serfs, peasants, what have you. A fellow I have known for years(retired Naval officer, so no dummy) has said that he has read articles that say that what we are entering now is the Fall of Western Civilization. All the others have fallen(Rome, Greece, Ottoman, Austrian. USSR, etc.) and although like the Roman this will take a while(most of us wil be safely dead but out grandkids?) it nonetheless will happen. What do you think?
 

Torre82

Moderator \ Jannie
Staff member
We are in late stage failure of capitalism. The failings will happen closer to each other and the system will melt into a puddle of 'itskindastillworkingQUICKsomebodycall911'.
I think it is, as usual.. up to the people to demand something of their lords and ladies, or better yet to band against them and form splinter nations, like humanity is fond of doing.
The people just need logic and guidance.
"I dont need guidance, I need that check!"
But that check isnt for you.
"What are you talking about, this'll pay my bills and buy my food!"
Exactly. It isnt yours, its a landlord bailout with a smidge for your wal mart, pleb.
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
I can't help but wonder if we are just returning to what I call the Standard Human Condition. With the exception of the last 100 years or so if you think about it, there has always been a very small portion of people at the top(Kings, Emperors, Wealthy Merchants, whoever) then just below them a modest group of Middle class folks(Dukes, Earls, moderately wealthy merchants to care for the needs of the top, etc) and at the bottom 90-95 % absolutely dirt poor. Serfs, peasants, what have you. A fellow I have known for years(retired Naval officer, so no dummy) has said that he has read articles that say that what we are entering now is the Fall of Western Civilization. All the others have fallen(Rome, Greece, Ottoman, Austrian. USSR, etc.) and although like the Roman this will take a while(most of us will be safely dead but out grandkids?) it nonetheless will happen. What do you think?

Standard Human Condition... I like that. It's an interesting observation, and I'd say that you're onto something. In my world, we call that reversion to the mean. But it doesn't just apply to statistical based trading models. As you're suggesting, I think that it can apply to human socioeconomic conditions as well.

Having had a fascination with the Roman Republic, and the later Roman Empire, since high school, I've also drawn certain parallels over the years. I'm hardly the first though. The Founding Fathers and the writers of our Constitution and the Bill of Rights based a great deal of our foundations on the lessons learned by the Greeks and (primarily) the Romans. There's an excellent book which speaks to this. It's titled Empires of Trust - How Rome Built, and America Is Building, A New World. It's a good read, if you ever have the time. I think that you're a person who would enjoy it.

Although Rome had a republican foundation (governmentally) until the time of Augustus, their society was always strictly class based... in a formal sense socially, but not economically. Apart from slavery and institutional racism and sexism in the last century and before, we've not really had those sorts of social class restrictions. We've pretty much had the idea that a man could rise above his original station in life. And a great many people in this country have done just that. IMO, this is the main reason that people still flock to this nation (legally and illegally); it's still the Land of Opportunity. But from my observations, it's immigrants who now believe that most, and they're successfully taking advantage of those opportunities. It's the native born Americans who aren't (for whatever reason) grabbing for the brass ring. Look at the number of immigrants who are now running some of the biggest American based companies in the world, as well as leaders in the tech and medical fields. Don't get me wrong. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just pointing out that determined people from "challenged" backgrounds are succeeding here... but native born citizens aren't. And, just my opinion, but where Americans (especially younger ones) are now focused on the reasons why they can't succeed and how unfair things are, immigrants are elbowing them out of the way and focusing on the ways that they can succeed.

But to your point, yes, I feel that this younger generation will look toward the government (which will continue to be led by the elites) and expanded government programs to make things "more fair" (whatever that means). But I am a suspicious person by nature, and I feel like I know a thing or two about human nature. So as I see people like Mark Zuckerberg, his partner in crime Sheryl Sandberg, George Soros, Bill Gates, Mike Bloomberg, Jeff Bezos and other members of the super wealthy elite saying that they're going to support handouts for the downtrodden, I smell a rat. Why would they? Because as they hand out slivers of bread, they'll have even more control and power... and they'll be eating cake. I believe that's sort of what Torre is saying too.
 

Torre82

Moderator \ Jannie
Staff member
and they'll be eating cake. I believe that's sort of what Torre is saying too.
*eats some cranberry raisin nut mix* yup. yup. *chew chew*
Some cake sounds good.
 

Theopolis Q. Hossenffer

I am in America, not of it.
And when you have a complete and total economic change like the current one the Governments of all countries have no choice but to do something to keep people going. Even a heavily controlled dictatorship, China for example does not want a repeat of Tiananmen Square nation wide. Unless you are willing to begin to kill your people wholesale, you must bend. The amount is what is the issue. And then consider The United States. Even here is the government willing to try to clamp down on a nation of 330 million of whom many probably are heavily armed and most likely 15% hate government of any kind? The New Deal in the 1930's here in America was in my opinion a way to try to prevent destitute people from deciding that Republics were not a good deal and maybe Communism should have a chance. Remember some people starved to death in the 30's. My Sister-in-Law was a great proponent of the "Let them eat Cake" plan and I told her that that was a false economy because if there isn't some sharing of the wealth by the well off the poor in America were no longer going to sit around and wait to starve like in some countries. No, they are going to break down you door and kill you and then take your stuff. So better to share some now than take a chance of losing it all later. Or spending it to hire guards to protect you.
 
My opposition is to the broad concept of a nanny state. And it's the (power hungry) people who attempt to sell that kool-aid to thirsty people that I have no use for.

One could make the argument that we've been experiencing such a thing in this country. Some people sell it as the "free market". One could also make the argument that more economic pain and suffering has been done during the last 12 years(Great Recession, low wages, pandemic, now another recession.etc) than at any other time.
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
One could make the argument that we've been experiencing such a thing in this country. Some people sell it as the "free market". One could also make the argument that more economic pain and suffering has been done during the last 12 years(Great Recession, low wages, pandemic, now another recession.etc) than at any other time.

I wouldn't disagree. I would say that the practice or habit of privatizing profits, while socializing losses, is an example of a nanny state. I'd further say that neither the left nor the right has put forth much (if any) *real* effort into getting us off that kool-aid. If anything, they've just tried to make it more popular among their bifurcated bases, instead of addressing the real macro (fiscal and monetary) and geopolitical structural issues that have put us in this rinse & repeat cycle... or downward spiral (depending on how you want to look at it).
 

Theopolis Q. Hossenffer

I am in America, not of it.
Of course it is to be remembered that the goal of any Politician is to be reelected till he/she either dies or retires and then to be sure that the office is safely placed in the hands of either family or designated friend. And the way to do it is to Promise, Promise, Promise while doing as little as possible to change anything. Change is dangerous. That is why many states and cities and of course the Federal government do not allow Citizen's initiatives. You let those folks start voting on their own ideas and anything can happen.
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Of course it is to be remembered that the goal of any Politician is to be reelected till he/she either dies or retires and then to be sure that the office is safely placed in the hands of either family or designated friend.

Exactly. We don't have to go back to Julius Caesar and his family or heirs to have examples of this. Look at the Kennedy, Bush and Clinton families/dynasties for modern examples.

You mentioned being from Illinois. I'm not sure that the Caesars could compare to the Daley family. If there's a nuclear war, we'll all be dead but the cockroaches and the Daleys will still be here.
 

Theopolis Q. Hossenffer

I am in America, not of it.
Not to be contradictory but the Daleys are actually gone. After Rich Daley pretty much destroyed Chicago after 20 years he got out in 2011. Obama's former press Secretary then was elected and finished the job. Another one who left before he was tossed out. A pretty honest woman is running the city now but I am not sure she can fix it. Too much damage and no money. The entire state is bleeped as the House Speaker has been running the state for 25 years now and it is completely messed up. FUBARED you will. And Coronavirus will be the death knell. Sad to watch, worse to be part of it.
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
No worries. We're just having a friendly discussion about this & that.

That family still has a lot of influence in Illinois politics, wouldn't you say? I'm not an expert on Chicago, but I still have family there. And just from what they tell me, Lori Lightfoot could disappear like a puff of smoke in a wind storm. But Bill and the others could always come back into the fray... just because they have the name. As in, you think that you've eradicated the roaches in your house, but then you flip on the kitchen lights one night and there they are again! :oops:

I feel for ya. I used to enjoy visiting my family in Chicago. I always thought of it more favorably than I did NYC (which I never cared for).
 

Theopolis Q. Hossenffer

I am in America, not of it.
That is true, Brother Bill is around and did toy with a run for Mayor not to long ago. And lots of younger relatives around, so yes you are right. Dynasties are hard to get rid of. Many folks vote for the name they recognize or some one of their own ethnicity or who gives them gifts or services. Maybe like the old Mafia Bosses or maybe even the current Drug Lords. When eliminating a rival, eliminate all the family as who wants to have to deal with children growing up and coming to avenge their Daddy?(Kidding, at least on the personal level) I do like Lightfoot. Seems relatively honest and not afraid to take charge(Names and kick Asses). Glad I don't like in Chicago but am close enough to get fallout.
Far north suburbs.
 

Theopolis Q. Hossenffer

I am in America, not of it.
i am kinda surprised that some of the other members who take a more individualist bent are not weighing in on this thread. Seems to me that they would have an opinion as well.
 

Rey C.

Racing is life... anything else is just waiting.
Well, to be honest with you, Bubb, I'm glad that you're posting here. It's good to take part in a reasonable discussion with someone, whether we're in agreement or not. There was a time (seems like long, long ago), when we had spirited discussions on here. There were (brief) times when we didn't just have partisan based arguments and name calling contests - we actually had some debates based in logic. Most of those people have left, for one reason or another. And now the board isn't all that active, and what activity we do have is rather predictable. I know what most people are going to post before they post it. But, ya know... it's just a forum on a porn board (we're not really accomplishing anything but airing our thoughts and gripes), and forums aren't as popular these days as the (fake) friends and enemies that people interact with on Facebook and Instagram. I'm not down with that. This is as close as I get to any kind of "social media".

Most people (I guess) know my broad view of socialism. While necessary to provide public services and defense, let loose, it's like a cancer. It further weakens the downtrodden, who it claims to help, and puts more power in the hands of overlords. It creates a dependent class, which it needs to remain subservient. We spoke about the Romans earlier. The way their government controlled the people (or "the mob" as they referred to the lower classes) was to increase grain and food allocations and put on more games and displays when the public temperature began to rise. Remember panem et circenses (bread and circuses)? I'm not a Republican or a Democrat. I believe that parties are mainly concerned with maintaining or gaining power, and that's it. And I believe that limited socialism mixed with controlled capitalism is probably the best way to provide both social protections and economic opportunities. The tricky part is, of course, finding the optimal mix. What the Democrat party machine has done in Chicago is not an example of an optimal mix. Cabrini Green was an example of what socialism (and inherent corruption) can do to an already vulnerable population. We don't really have to study Cuba or Venezuela to see the potential issues with broad based socialism.
 
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