Police shoot and kill kid for carrying a replica gun

[Johan]

Cleveland police kill boy, 12, carrying a replica gun


A 12-year-old boy has been shot dead by police in the US city of Cleveland, after carrying what turned out to be a replica gun in a playground.

Police say an officer fired two shots at the boy after he failed to obey an order to raise his hands.

A caller reported the boy to police for scaring people with a gun but said that he did not know if it was real.

One of the officers was in his first year on the local force, the other had more than 10 years of experience.

The medical examiner for Cuyahoga County identified the boy as Tamir Rice.

The boy was shot on Saturday afternoon and died in hospital early on Sunday morning.


'Airsoft'

Cleveland deputy police chief Ed Tomba said the boy was shot twice after pulling the gun from the waistband of his trousers.

The boy did not make any verbal threats nor point the gun towards the officers, Mr Tomba added.

Police said the weapon was an "airsoft" replica gun that resembled a semi-automatic pistol, adding that an orange safety indicator had been removed.

The caller said the boy was pulling the gun in and out of his trousers. "I don't know if it's real or not," the caller told police.

But Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland police association, said the two officers at the scene were not told about the caller's comments.

The BBC's David Willis in Washington says an investigation is under way and both officers have been placed on administrative leave.

He says there have already been calls for tighter controls on fake guns, with one local lawmaker - Alicia Reece - saying she intends to introduce legislation that would require fake guns sold in Ohio to be brightly coloured.

A lawyer for Rice's family, Timothy Kucharski, told the BBC that he would be conducting an investigation, in "parallel" to the police, in order to establish exactly what happened.

"If in fact we determine that Tamir's rights are violated, we will proceed with civil action against the police," he said.

Cleveland's police force has come under increased scrutiny in recent years, most notably over a high-profile car chase in 2012 that ended with two deaths and officers firing 137 shots.

The US Justice Department is currently conducting an investigation of the force's pursuit and use-of-force practices.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30172433

1) Why am I not surprised that it's a black kid that's been shot ? Why do I have the feeling that this wouldn't have happened to a white kid ?
2) This is what happen when automatics are as easy to buy as a loaf of bread : people and even police officers don't even think twice when they see a kid with something that looks like a gun, it must be a real gun, it can't be a fake one. Particulary if the kid is black...

 

[Mr. Daystar]

You really are fucked up in the head. Did you see the gun? They showed it on CNN. I saw it, and it looked VERY MUCH like a 1911 model .45ACP to me. I've forgotten more about guns then you will ever know, and it looked real enough to me, that I would be safe, as opposed to sorry. I suppose the cop should have taken a bullet first, just to be sure? The cops tell you to freeze, and keep your hands in plain site...YOU FUCKING DO JUST THAT! The orange safety tip was removed...they don't just fall off, it had to be taken off. This kid played a losing game, and he lost. Even the family attorney said this is not about race, but you just had to bring it up. Ever stop and think, maybe a white kid wouldn't have done this. And just so you don't sound so stupid in the future, it's not a real gun, so you only have to be 18, as opposed to 21 to buy it....and it's not "automatic" It's semi automatic. Auto is a word only used to make things sound far more menacing then they really are.

 

[Deepcover]

I'm getting fucking tired hearing these racial murder stories in America

 

[MustBeGood]

I'm getting fucking tired hearing these racial murder stories in America

Same here.

America get off on this stuff like African Americans are the only race being gunned down by whites.

Turn off those 24/7 news outlet, you can get your news from reading it on internet.

 

[Johan]

You really are fucked up in the head.

Much less than you are ! This kind of thing never happen in countrs with some gun-control laws.

And even considering the the fact that this kid didn't complied to what the cops said, he didn't threatened the cops, not with the gun, not even verbally these guys are trained shooters, aren't they ? So, if they need to shoot a non-moving target, I guess they could go for the knees or the belly. I mean, thereare ways for a trained shooter to neutralize a non-moving target without killing him.

He says there have already been calls for tighter controls on fake guns

Yeah, get tighter legislation on fake guns but do not pass any legislation over real guns. Makes total sense, 'cause fake guns are so dangerous...

 

[sean miguel]

And even considering the the fact that this kid didn't complied to what the cops said, he didn't threatened the cops, not with the gun, not even verbally these guys are trained shooters, aren't they ? So, if they need to shoot a non-moving target, I guess they could go for the knees or the belly. I mean, thereare ways for a trained shooter to neutralize a non-moving target without killing him.

Just think of the stupidity of that statement for a moment. If the officer felt his life was in danger (which is why he would need to fire his weapon in the first place) why would he aim for the knees?

 

[Mr. Daystar]

I'm a little more then tired of the whole race bullshit too. I haven't seen the policeman who pulled the trigger, but as a Clevelander, I can tell you, there's a good chance he's black. But to answer Johan's question, you aren't surprised, because a lot of black youth, commit crimes. It might not be a popular answer, but statistics have shown, more blacks are in prison, because they commit more crimes. As far as this not happening to a white kid, that's just fucking absurd...in fact, the local news reported that, the families attorney has stated, this is not about race, but about the use of deadly force, and if the police is trained enough in it's use. The guns brightly colored orange barrel tip was removed...whether he did it, or someone else, it was altered, and made to look more like a real gun. I'm sorry, but if you do something that stupid, you are clearly asking for trouble. As far as not posing a threat to the cops...if you are told to show your hands, or drop your weapon, or both, you do it, you don't try to explain, you make no effort to concern yourself with a possible scratch on your weapon, you comply IMMEDIATELY...and if you don't, YOU ARE A THREAT. You always...ALWAYS shot to kill. That's how police are trained, that's how I was trained when I took my CCW class. This is a fucking terrible situation, for everyone. The parents, the cop, the city...nothing good comes from a thing like this, but what makes it worse, is when people start playing the race card, or pointing fingers, without knowing all of the facts, or blaming an inanimate object for this type of tragedy...it's just pathetic.

 

[Johan]

You don't act the same when you're dealing with a 12 years old kid and when you're dealing with a 19 years old teenager. 'cause a kid may not realise the consequences of his actions. It's like dealing with a mentally challenged guy.

You always...ALWAYS shot to kill. That's how police are trained, that's how I was trained when I took my CCW class.

Then the questions about the use of deadly force, and if the police is trained enough in it's use are relevant, and not only in Cleveland. In al!ost every "developped" country, when the police kill someone the word "police blunder" are all over the papers, TV abd radio shows, etc (except in some cases, like, for example, anti-mafia police operations). Only in the US you have cops killing kids that weren't posing a direct and real threat ot them or two other people.

To me, this is all because of the (absence of) guns laws in the US : more guns leads to a more violent country, which means more murders, being a cop is a more dangerous job then cops do not think twice before shooting.
You can argue whatever you want, the fact is the absence of gun laws in America makes it a more dangerous country, for cops and law-abiding citizen. Just look at the homicide rate statistics : With 4.7 homicides/100,000 inhabitant the US have a homicide rate equal to fucking Niger ! Do you know where Niger is ? It's in Africa, sub-saharian Africa. There's AQIM in this region of the world ! Countries such as Bangladesh, Kosovo, India, Turkey, Montenegro have lower homicide rates than the US. Not even mentioning western european countries which all have homicide rates lower than 2.0 (Greece has actuly the highest holicide rates in westetn Europe : 1.7).


Guns ==> Crimes
Deal with it !

Your may have other relevant arguments in favor of no gun-lesgislation but you can't deny that

 

[Little Red Wagon Repairman]

Johan, your gun control angle on this issue is debatable. You have a decent point.

But, as far as use of force you seriously are in error. A gun is dangerous in anyone's hands. A police officer wants to get home safely and in one piece and should have a fair chance of achieving that. I feel bad for the 12 year old who didn't have murderous intent but the police officer shoots to kill as he is trained. Only a fool would aim for the knees or the belly when center mass is an option. I hope there is a lesson to be learned so the incident is not repeated.

Some advice for you; please don't allow your mind to be so easily commandeered by all the race baiting that comes out of my country. Much of it is done for profit or to scapegoat responsibility. White people in America have better things to do than waste our time planning to do away with the blacks. If you really care about dead blacks focus your attention where many of their deaths occur and hold the murderous bastards accountable that actually kill them.

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

From Ferguson to Utah, to Florida or wherever an officer involved shooting occurs, Johan will be there to make an ass out of himself. In every other thread regarding this topic someone points out very clearly why police department policies don't include Hopalong Cassidy or Roy Rogers trick shooting in their training syllabus. Shooting to wound is inadvisable in all circumstances. Police shoot until a threat has been eliminated. It's not that hard to understand for those of us who don't possess an extra chromosome.

 

[ThatRedWing]

Hey, here's an idea, if you don't want to get shot put your hands up and drop the damn gun when the cop tells you to. As far as the gun being a "toy" the only reason to take off the safety indicator is to make look more like a "real" gun. If I'm more than ten yards away from someone with THAT gun, I'm going to assume that it's real until they drop it. Shoot him in the leg? That's just plain stupid. Suppose that it was a real gun and you shoot him in the leg and he starts firing off shots putting MORE people in danger. And you know when the two cops found out it was an airsoft they felt like total shit. I'm tired of all this cop bashing. Most cops are trying to do their job to the best of their abilities and make it home safe after their shift.

 

[Johan]

If you do not agree that police use excessive forces just go to Google, type "police shoot unarmed" and start reading about so many cases in so little time...

 

[Ace Boobtoucher]

You are so dumb...I just can't come up with the right metaphor because I haven't encountered anybody as thick-headed as you. Look up the continuum of force and stop being so obdurate.

- - - Updated - - -

You are so dumb...I just can't come up with the right metaphor because I haven't encountered anybody as thick-headed as you. Look up the continuum of force and stop being so obdurate.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

Yeah, well in this country, 12 year old kids belong to gangs, and deal drugs, and commit crimes.

DEAL WITH IT!!!

The fact is, you are clueless, and a natural born victim...you possess no survival skills, and even less of an ability to understand what it takes to protect your loved ones. You just wait patiently on 911....that'll stop that lead from flyin' .

 

[ThatRedWing]

OK, let me try to explain this. Are there cops that are just complete assholes and go too far? Yes. Any time an officer fires his weapon other than on the range there is an internal investigation. If any wrongdoing is found, that officer can lose their job first off and then face possible prosecution. Do you have any idea what's going to happen to a cop in the pen? So 99% of cops are going to be really careful about firing their weapon. This has nothing to do with race or anything else. This was a dumb ass that didn't do what he was told to do. I feel bad for the kid, I feel bad for his family and I feel bad for these two cops and their families. I know that this kid was only 12 but you have to have more sense than that. I have been shooting "real" guns since I was 8 years old. I got my first pellet gun 2 years later when my dad knew that I had the proper respect for handling one. The "toy" gun that he had was purposely altered to look as real as possible. How do we know that he hadn't been using it for illegal purposes? If he had the media sure as hell isn't going to let the public know.

 

[Johan]

Yeah, well in this country, 12 year old kids belong to gangs, and deal drugs, and commit crimes.

DEAL WITH IT!!!

The fact is, you are clueless, and a natural born victim...you possess no survival skills, and even less of an ability to understand what it takes to protect your loved ones. You just wait patiently on 911....that'll stop that lead from flyin' .

Now, you gotta ask yoursefl why are you living in a such violent country while the rest of the citizens of Japan, Australia or Western Europe are living in countries that are so much less violent. My thought is that it's because in your country anyone, even mentally challenged people, can buy guns.

 

[sean miguel]

Doesn't Switzerland have one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world? Yes, I understand that guns are issued as part of militia service but regardless, all those firearms are amongst the population. Yet their violent crime rate is virtually non-existent.

So if the availability of guns isnt the common denominator to violent crime what is?

Oh, and you could arm every Japanese household with a rocket launcher and an assault rifle and I'm convinced that that society would be as peaceful and benevolent as they are now.

 

[Johan]

Doesn't Switzerland have one of the highest rates of gun ownership in the world? Yes, I understand that guns are issued as part of militia service but regardless, all those firearms are amongst the population. Yet their violent crime rate is virtually non-existent.

So if the availability of guns isnt the common denominator to violent crime what is?

Oh, and you could arm every Japanese household with a rocket launcher and an assault rifle and I'm convinced that that society would be as peaceful and benevolent as they are now.

Let's be vet precise about this 'cause Swiss gun rights are very different from the US and subject to many widespread false ideas.

1) At 19 (or 20), every male swiss citizen must undergo basic military training at the Rekrutenschule (recruit school) after which Swiss men remain part of the militia until age 30 (34 for officers).
2) During that time they have to keep their gun at home but they can store it in the city's Zeughaus (armoury).
3) The gun is provided by the government and it's a very specific gun : 5.56x45mm SIG SG 550 rifle for enlisted personnel and/or the 9mm SIG P220 semi-automatic pistol for officers, military police, medical and postal personnel).
4) Until 2007 the ammos awere provided by the government in the form of sealed packages, regularly inspected by police to ensure no unautorised use of them. In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still store ammunition at home today.
5) At the end of their time of service, men can keep the gun but this requires a specific licence.
6) The Swiss governement sponsors shooting range. The ammos that are bought at the shooting range have to be used there.
7) Buying any other gun requires a licence.
8) Carrying a gun requires a licence.

 

[bobjustbob]

Let's take this same 12yo kid, with the same gun, with the same complaints about waving it around in the park, responds to police requests to raise hands by reaching into his belt and drop him in France. Are your police so trained as to assess the situation any differently? Would Japanese handle the situation differently because citizens don't have handguns?

 

[BioDefenseGrad]

Let's take this same 12yo kid, with the same gun, with the same complaints about waving it around in the park, responds to police requests to raise hands by reaching into his belt and drop him in France. Are your police so trained as to assess the situation any differently? Would Japanese handle the situation differently because citizens don't have handguns?

It doesn't matter if citizens don't have guns. If the police in Japan are responding to a call about a person waving a pistol at pedestrians they may very well come armed and ready to use deadly force.