Minimum Wage (2)

[D-rock]

If you raised the minimum wage the cost of products would go up. (Because we all know that shareholders and the people that run corporations are never going to want to be the ones taking the hit) However if you adjusted the minimum wage from what it was in 1968 to today it would be over 10 dollars an hour! Keep in mind that was the minimum wage. It's kind of embarrassing considering where it is now. We weren't on the verge of collapse from the prices of products then. In fact that might have been the best economic period our country has ever been in. I don't even think that figure is adjusted for increases in the cost of living. Now not only do people at that level of income make a lot less than they would have in the past but the cost of things like fuel, homes, cars and other things is more expensive than it's ever been making the situation worse. Sure clothing, food, and junky appliances, are cheaper than before, but that's because almost all the clothing is made in foreign sweatshops costing us jobs. The food is cheaper than in the past if you only count the vast amounts of fat, cheap, and greasy food and the other things we have done to other food to maximize production (like adding hormones to everything). If you ever tried to eat nothing but healthy food you would soon learn how much more expensive it is than buying some box of goodies they just shove full of sugar, starch and salt. Sure it gives you a lot of calories, but it's not good to eat, and the poor usually end up buying more of that stuff because of its cheapness. I also think people forget that if more people made more money they could afford the greater prices. The government would even benefit. So many of our taxes are regressive that if the poorer took a larger chunk of the money they would probably get more in taxes instead of it going to the richer who get more tax breaks so they get to keep it. Of course the people that are better off than those making the minimum would be affected negatively more but that leads me to another thing...

Raising the minimum wage is also about social justice, not just economics. I'm not one of those people that thinks it's ok to just totally remove morality and ethics from an economic system because it makes numbers look good at the bottom of a sheet. At a certain point you have to respect another persons human dignity, and I believe an honest days work should get an honest days pay. I would think after a time everybody would realize it's not good to exploit others for your own gain. I know this is an old saying but, there is no free lunch in this world. All those low prices that people like paying, they don't come out of thin air. Somewhere, one way or another somebody has to pay for that, whether that is somebody making near minimum wage or somebody in another country working in near slave like conditions because they have no other choice. That's easy to forget about when you walk into some store and pick out an item. The process that goes to get it there is out of sight out of mind so nobody has to think about the consequences of their actions when they buy it. For a lot of people out there just assume that people making near the minimum are burger flippers or teenagers working after school. That isn’t always the case, not anymore at least. There are a lot of adults working tough adult jobs for low money. You would be surprised at what some people make. For example, I think in one area around here paramedics only make a little above seven dollars an hour.

All the things I have learned about money, the economy, and life has taught me one thing. You cannot maximize profit and do the right thing or make a good product, or treat your employees well for that matter. It just doesn't happen and it will never happen. The mercenary like capitalistic, free trade, free market ideas some people have don't work. (Or they only work for a select group of people, which is the problem) I don't know why in this day in age more people haven't come to that obvious conclusion. Part of that is why I think Economics is one of the dumbest subjects that is taught. Unlike other subjects where almost all the experts agree on most things, I have never seen a subject that has so many people off in so many directions at once. I sometimes wonder if they use a magic 8-ball to come to their conclusions. I listen to them and wonder if most of them know what they are taking about. I liken it to being with an engineer who tells you that something works out on paper and by his calculations, and then when you come back and tell him it doesn’t work he doesn’t want to accept it. It is also one of the few things that people will adamantly adhere to a philosophy or theory that negatively affects people in the face of common sense and proof to the contrary in the hopes that their theories will someday pan out somehow. All those theories that the most free market among us have thought would make a better society just aren't working out, because like I stated before maximizing profit and doing the right thing don’t go together. Also, at some point, because of the culture of the business and the rich, I think the concept of competition doesn't even work out how people thought it would. Instead of the best product for the lowest prices, it's become a race to the bottom to see who can cut the most corners to make something that is barely acceptable so we grudgingly accept buying it. (Assuming it’s something we don’t need to buy. If it’s a necessity then they can skimp even more)

 

[Roughneck]

I'm completely against a minimum wage. The market will pay what it will bear. Minimum wage is is inflationary and anti-little people - It just eliminates THEIR JOBS.

Interest rates are going up and up to fend off inflationary pressures AS THINGS ARE NOW. Increasing minimum wage just ensures not only that those 'little people' absolutely cannot afford mortgage and car payments, but that those costs go up for you as well.

Increasing minimum wage has NOTHING to do with helping the little guy. If such a law could really make a difference, why not set the minimum wage at 75 dollars an hour? Seriously? Why not?

Because . . . the cost of living would go up to match new wages (the costs would be reflected in the price of EVERYTHING), and then some. Exactly.

Here's the fun part ---- because YOU don't live at minimum wage, you don't notice that this is EXACTLY what happens when the min wage goes up. And, when business are forced to change their models of practice, they normally take the opportunity to add small increases in their profit margins along the way. Result: the 'little people' now have a buck more an hour at the cost of 1.20 an hour in increased cost of living.

The misconception at play is that 'minimum wage' is supposed to be a 'living wage'. Um, no. It's supposed to be an 'entry wage'. There is a difference.

When you reward such behavior, you only encourage it. The result: the creation of a 'minimum wage' class dependent on the gov't for its patronage. And that is the beneficiaries of minimum wage: politicians AT THE EXPENSE of the little guy (or more to the point, at the creation of ever more of them.)

The recessionary/inflationary pressure as a result of this increase can only create many many more minimum wage earners to vote for the idiots holding them back with their fiscal idiocy.

Here, let me use an example:
Let us assume it costs me $50/day to hire 2 guys at minimum wage.
Let us assume that I make a profit of $30/day from my business.
Now Govt. raises minimum wage to $40. Now it costs me $80 to hire 2 guys for minimum wage.

To make a living, I need to make a profit, right? So what do I do? I either increase my prices - and hope people continue buying... OR, I eliminate one of the 2 guys I have working at minimum wage (cut cots) and keep prices down.

So the end results? Less 'minimum wage' jobs available or increase prices of goods/services.

How is this beneficial to ANYBODY?


cheers,

 

[lovejoy]

Kanasa State has one of the worst mimimal wage at $2.65.

How do you feel making $2.65 an hour in Kansas ?

 

[Roughneck]

If you raised the minimum wage the cost of products would go up. (Because we all know that shareholders and the people that run corporations are never going to want to be the ones taking the hit) However if you adjusted the minimum wage from what it was in 1968 to today it would be over 10 dollars an hour! Keep in mind that was the minimum wage. It's kind of embarrassing considering where it is now.

Inflation comes from more than just "raising the minimum wage". Did you compare it to 'public debt' then and now? Or what was the monetary value of the dollar then versus now? You have to atleast factor these variables in...

We weren't on the verge of collapse from the prices of products then.

That's because:
1. The Govt. has NEVER reported the true 'inflation'
2. 'Inflation' has a "creep" effect. Did you know that the US dollar has lost over 60% of it's value since 2001 alone (in other words, your money today was worth 60 time more barely 6 years ago) ?

How is this possible??!! You didn't feel any "pinch" and "we aren't on the verge of collapse from our prices today" aren't we?!!

Thought so.

In fact that might have been the best economic period our country has ever been in.

Sorry D-Rock. You're flat dead wrong.

I don't even think that figure is adjusted for increases in the cost of living. Now not only do people at that level of income make a lot less than they would have in the past but the cost of things like fuel, homes, cars and other things is more expensive than it's ever been making the situation worse.

Hey, Nixon said he wouldn't honor the gold standard and nearly no one raised hell then...

You reap what you sow.

Sure clothing, food, and junky appliances, are cheaper than before, but that's because almost all the clothing is made in foreign sweatshops costing us jobs.

But never before have the poor had access to choice as they do now! Why is it fashionable to beat up on Wal-Mart and other giant retailers when nobody else has come close to giving the majority of America access to cheap goods? Has the government done any better than our struggling, overly regulated free market?

I also think people forget that if more people made more money they could afford the greater prices. The government would even benefit. So many of our taxes are regressive that if the poorer took a larger chunk of the money they would probably get more in taxes instead of it going to the richer who get more tax breaks so they get to keep it.

Yes, never mind that the top 1% pay over half of our income taxes anyway... so naturally, ANY tax cut would "seem" to benefit them more.

You pay more into the system, you ofcourse "benefit" more when the system cuts back. It's simple 2+2=4.

Raising the minimum wage is also about social justice, not just economics.

There is a word for this argument: s-o-c-i-a-l-i-s-m. And you have arrived at the crux of the matter - raising the minimum wage has nothing to do with sound economic policy but everything to do with vote bank politics.

I'm not one of those people that thinks it's ok to just totally remove morality and ethics from an economic system because it makes numbers look good at the bottom of a sheet.

And yet using government force and coercion is somehow more moral?

By the way - I didn't know we were slaves in America and that we didn't have a choice and a voice in matters concerning our employment and compensation.

Nobody forces you to work for the wage you earn.

At a certain point you have to respect another persons human dignity, and I believe an honest days work should get an honest days pay.

I don't disagree but I think you are misrepresenting the argument.

Let's take healthcare for example -- do you really think a doctor's visit should cost you $100? Or an ER visit $400? Why did (or more importantly, HOW DID) costs rise? And why do they continue to sky rocket?

Hint: HMOs and who started them.

I know this is an old saying but, there is no free lunch in this world. All those low prices that people like paying, they don't come out of thin air.

You say this in support of an argument FOR the minimum wage?

Somewhere, one way or another somebody has to pay for that, whether that is somebody making near minimum wage or somebody in another country working in near slave like conditions because they have no other choice.

Why did you leave the other half of the argument? That more often than not, these same workers are paid better wages than their countrymen for the same hours of work? Or that your patronage of certain goods ensures that he has a job while millions around him don't?

There are a lot of adults working tough adult jobs for low money. You would be surprised at what some people make. For example, I think in one area around here paramedics only make a little above seven dollars an hour.

Paramedics have always made a little over entry-level wages anyhow. That hasn't changed much since the 70s (I think). Who/What do you think is the cause of this?

All the things I have learned about money, the economy, and life has taught me one thing. You cannot maximize profit and do the right thing or make a good product, or treat your employees well for that matter. It just doesn't happen and it will never happen. The mercenary like capitalistic, free trade, free market ideas some people have don't work. (Or they only work for a select group of people, which is the problem) I don't know why in this day in age more people haven't come to that obvious conclusion. Part of that is why I think Economics is one of the dumbest subjects that is taught. Unlike other subjects where almost all the experts agree on most things, I have never seen a subject that has so many people off in so many directions at once. I sometimes wonder if they use a magic 8-ball to come to their conclusions. I listen to them and wonder if most of them know what they are taking about. I liken it to being with an engineer who tells you that something works out on paper and by his calculations, and then when you come back and tell him it doesn’t work he doesn’t want to accept it. It is also one of the few things that people will adamantly adhere to a philosophy or theory that negatively affects people in the face of common sense and proof to the contrary in the hopes that their theories will someday pan out somehow. All those theories that the most free market among us have thought would make a better society just aren't working out, because like I stated before maximizing profit and doing the right thing don’t go together. Also, at some point, because of the culture of the business and the rich, I think the concept of competition doesn't even work out how people thought it would. Instead of the best product for the lowest prices, it's become a race to the bottom to see who can cut the most corners to make something that is barely acceptable so we grudgingly accept buying it. (Assuming it’s something we don’t need to buy. If it’s a necessity then they can skimp even more)

There are so many things wrong with this one paragraph I don't even know where to start.

I'll label it as a "rant" and leave it at that.

You are entitled to your views D-man - but you don't know squat about what you're talking about. You dismiss economics as a "useless" subject either because you don't understand it or you don't care to understand it --- in either case, it's apparent you know little if anything about it.

I'm not saying you're stupid - just saying that you are quick to jump to (flawed) conclusions about a subject even you admit to having little knowledge about.


Here's a small test for you -- since you obviously think "free markets are a joke" - name ONE planned/centralized/'government managed' economy that has consistently outperformed the free market in history.

Just one.


cheers,

 

[Roughneck]

Kanasa State has one of the worst mimimal wage at $2.65.

How do you feel making $2.65 an hour in Kansas ?

A. I sure as shit wouldn't be working just one "minimum wage job" in Kansas. In fact, nobody with brains should be. Minimum wage doesnt equate "living wage".

B. What is the 'cost of living' in Kansas state? Is monetary supply in Kansas state the same as it's neighbouring states? Or is it even the same within the state itself?

C. Before you spout more rhetorical statements, please answer the question I posed in the post directly above your reply that I quoted:

Here, let me use an example:
Let us assume it costs me $50/day to hire 2 guys at minimum wage.
Let us assume that I make a profit of $30/day from my business.
Now Govt. raises minimum wage to $40. Now it costs me $80 to hire 2 guys for minimum wage.

To make a living, I need to make a profit, right? So what do I do? I either increase my prices - and hope people continue buying... OR, I eliminate one of the 2 guys I have working at minimum wage (cut cots) and keep prices down.

So the end results? Less 'minimum wage' jobs available or increase prices of goods/services.

How is this beneficial to ANYBODY?

What you just posted doesn't answer my question at all.

Anybody can quote rhetoric: I can quote dozens of statements about how government manipulation of monetary supply alone has made Americans poorer 3 times over within the past 100 years alone - but it won't help us one bit in anycase.


cheers,

 

[sammy402002]

My impression is that the minimum wage increase will put people out of work.A small store or business that employs 12 people will cut it back to maybe 9 or so.That is 3 people out of a job.A Target or Wal-Mart store that employs 50 people may cut it back to 35.That is 15 people with no job.I agree that people should make a living wage.The greedy companies will just not allow it.Those 70 year old assholes will still get their million dollar bonuses.Most all of Government control is a bad thing in My opinion.It retards the economy and the bigshots still get their "obscene cut" of the profits.I am so glad that I wised up and started investing in stocks and bonds and am no longer a slave to the retail and industrial Giants.Now they are working for Me.PASSIVE income is the only way to success in this economy.You will never be anything unless You run a company or have an investment portfolio.It is so hard to get started making $10.00,or even less an hour...but it can be done.----Retail jobs and factory jobs are a dead end unless You invest the money.Stop working hard and start working smart.I have been there,and I am a self made investor with 2 homes that I own comepletely,with no outstanding mortgages.I have been there before.It can be done.

 

[bigbadbrody]

Are you for or against an increase in minimum wage?

What country are you refering this question to?

Where I am from the minimum wage is the highest in the country and now the government is thinking of making it higher than it already is.

 

[jod0565]

As long as we all get the same pay raise also.

 

[Voluptuous]

It'll make EVERYTHING you buy cost more. How's that for a first lesson?

The United States today has a trillion dollar deficit in large part to Iraq. Canada has a 50 billion dollar surplus with over 1 million children residing in poverty. The problem is essentially not capitalism but rampant greed... Wal-Mart is a classic case of numerous abuses. The goods for the most part are manufactured in foreign nations where labour is cheap so profits will be higher.



Small business is really suffering while big business booms in arrogance. It's not a question of Democrat or Republican but rather major reforms that benefit us all both as consumers as well as merchants. China is on the horizon although their record in human rights is atrocious. Now, please let us return to Free Ones as the main theme is sexuality.

Cheers,
Voluptuous:wave2:

 

[Roughneck]

The United States today has a trillion dollar deficit in large part to Iraq. Canada has a 50 billion dollar surplus with over 1 million children residing in poverty.

Actually, the deficit has more to do than just Iraq - why did you leave out the other 7 trillion dollars?

And Canadian government has 50 Billion surplus - of whose money?
Do you think that governments posting "budget supluses" is a good thing?

The problem is essentially not capitalism but rampant greed...

The very fact that you include "capitalism" as part of the problem - even in as tiny a role - shows your 'lean' on the issue.

Though I don't entierly disagree with you on the 'greed' part. See my response to your Wal-Mart comment below:

Wal-Mart is a classic case of numerous abuses.

I partly-agree with you there --- I say partly because I don't agree with you as to HOW Wal-Mart if a problem.

You see Wal-Mart as you probably see any other "big corporation" - greedy and evil are probably the two first adjectives that pop into your mind were I to ask you to describe them. I think this is a myopic view - because it fails to see the other side of the story.... that Wal-Mart employs thousands and brings low cost, cheap goods for use by the mainstream American market.

Consider these words by Michael Strong:

Consider some numbers:

•From 1990 to 2002 more than 174 million people escaped poverty in China, about 1.2 million per month, according to the Asian Development Bank.

•Wal-Mart had an estimated $23 billion in Chinese exports in 2005; perhaps 70 percent of Wal-Mart's products are made by various manufacturers in China; in addition, Wal-Mart has 60 retail stores in China and directly employs about 30,000 Chinese.

•Extrapolating from these numbers, Wal-Mart might well be single-handedly responsible for bringing out of poverty about 460,000 Chinese per year, according to Industry Week magazine.

So, even without considering the $263 billion in consumer savings that Wal-Mart provides for low-income Americans, or the millions lifted out of poverty by Wal-Mart in other developing nations, it is unlikely that there is any single organization on the planet that alleviates poverty so effectively for so many people as Wal-Mart does in China. Moreover, insofar as China's rapid manufacturing growth has been associated with a decline in its status as a global arms dealer, Wal-Mart has also done more than its share in contributing to global peace.

How can this be, given the vast and growing literature documenting Wal-Mart's faults? We have seen workers in the factories of Wal-Mart's suppliers complain on tape about being forced to work long hours under terrible conditions. Certainly no one should be forced at any workplace. And yet even articles documenting Wal-Mart's faults often mention other facts that ought to be considered before coming to too quick a judgment concerning the overall impact of the corporation. In a Washington Post story titled "Chinese Workers Pay for Wal-Mart's Low Prices," documenting abuses of workers at Wal-Mart suppliers in China, the authors point out that:

"China is the most populous country, with 1.3 billion people, most still poor enough to willingly move hundreds of miles from home for jobs that would be shunned by anyone with better prospects."

If we care about alleviating global poverty we need to take this fact seriously. Without Wal-Mart, about half a million of these people each year would be stuck in rural poverty that is, for most of them, far worse than sweatshop labor.

Full article

Like I said earlier, I "partly" agree with you. IMHO, the United States is not a good free market economy. Not only are there thousands of market stifling government regulations, but there is enough 'corporatism' when it comes to big government. Anyone remember the "airline bailout package" in the wake of 9/11? it made my blood boil - why should taxpayers be forced to fund or support corporations?!! It is anti-thetical to free market principles and it is completely anti-american, no matter what those thieves in D.C. claim!

The goods for the most part are manufactured in foreign nations where labour is cheap so profits will be higher.

And naturally, "making a profit" is a henious offence!

Small business is really suffering while big business booms in arrogance. It's not a question of Democrat or Republican but rather major reforms that benefit us all both as consumers as well as merchants.

Just curious - what reforms would you introduce?

China is on the horizon although their record in human rights is atrocious.

cheers,

 

[Voluptuous]

Actually, the deficit has more to do than just Iraq - why did you leave out the other 7 trillion dollars?

And Canadian government has 50 Billion surplus - of whose money?
Do you think that governments posting "budget supluses" is a good thing?

The very fact that you include "capitalism" as part of the problem - even in as tiny a role - shows your 'lean' on the issue.

Though I don't entierly disagree with you on the 'greed' part. See my response to your Wal-Mart comment below:

I partly-agree with you there --- I say partly because I don't agree with you as to HOW Wal-Mart if a problem.

You see Wal-Mart as you probably see any other "big corporation" - greedy and evil are probably the two first adjectives that pop into your mind were I to ask you to describe them. I think this is a myopic view - because it fails to see the other side of the story.... that Wal-Mart employs thousands and brings low cost, cheap goods for use by the mainstream American market.

Consider these words by Michael Strong:
Full article

Like I said earlier, I "partly" agree with you. IMHO, the United States is not a good free market economy. Not only are there thousands of market stifling government regulations, but there is enough 'corporatism' when it comes to big government. Anyone remember the "airline bailout package" in the wake of 9/11? it made my blood boil - why should taxpayers be forced to fund or support corporations?!! It is anti-thetical to free market principles and it is completely anti-american, no matter what those thieves in D.C. claim!

And naturally, "making a profit" is a henious offence!

Just curious - what reforms would you introduce?




cheers,

Hi Roughneck,

This will be my last typed response to this complex issue. First, Canada is a very different country in both our cultural & historical past than America. Both the FTA & NAFTA were a monstrous swindle for this country as we lost more than simply natural resources. As for Wal-Mart, their methods of operation were very different than most if not all Canadian retailers in a myriad of ways. I simply don't have time to elaborate in intricate detail. I never said that any profit was a crime... please never quote things that are not true. As for reforms, there are solutions to any situation no matter how difficult but it requires enormous time & patience in resolving such issues along with a strong sense of mutual trust. The last word from me is that most if not all Canadians genuinely like the American people except for your system be it much lower minimum wages than here along with a list of problems such as poor handgun control. I also firmly believe based on increased documentation that Americans nor the world have been told the real truth about 9/11. The United States as a country was at its zenith between 1940-1960 but since that time there has been dramatic changes as to how you are perceived on a global scale. Ladies & Gentlemen, please let us resume our focus on what this forum is all about... namely sexuality.

Have A Great Weekend!
Voluptuous artysml:

 

[Roughneck]

First, Canada is a very different country in both our cultural & historical past than America. Both the FTA & NAFTA were a monstrous swindle for this country as we lost more than simply natural resources.

Actually I agree with you - atleast as far as NAFTA. I can't imagine something that is more antethetical to free trade than NAFTA!

As for Wal-Mart, their methods of operation were very different than most if not all Canadian retailers in a myriad of ways. I simply don't have time to elaborate in intricate detail.

Or you simply don't care/don't have evidence. :dunno:

I never said that any profit was a crime... please never quote things that are not true.

You didn't "say" so --- you just "implied so". You implied that Wal-Mart uses "capitalistic greed" to achieve its ends - namely "higher profits" :

The problem is essentially not capitalism but rampant greed... Wal-Mart is a classic case of numerous abuses. The goods for the most part are manufactured in foreign nations where labour is cheap so profits will be higher.

I don't have to make things up - your words are up there for all to see. You associate "capitalism" with the 'problem' of "greed" - forgetting that "greed" is not limited to "capitalism".

As for reforms, there are solutions to any situation no matter how difficult but it requires enormous time & patience in resolving such issues along with a strong sense of mutual trust.

Stop dodging the issue and put forth some answers. Don't give glib rhetoric like 99% of the politicians are wont to. You suggested that we reform the system - pray show us how. If not, accept you don't have any ideas as to how.

Either way is fine - just don't cop out...

The last word from me is that most if not all Canadians genuinely like the American people except for your system be it much lower minimum wages than here

We're back to square one --- it seems no one is interested in answeing my question about how raising minimum wages will not prevent either the rising of costs for goods/services or the increase in unemployment.

Instead, people seem to be content in hashing out more and more rhetoric - positive and/or negative --- often on subjects that have NOTHING to do with this thread.

along with a list of problems such as poor handgun control. I also firmly believe based on increased documentation that Americans nor the world have been told the real truth about 9/11.

And this has what to do with the price of tea in China?

The United States as a country was at its zenith between 1940-1960 but since that time there has been dramatic changes as to how you are perceived on a global scale.

And who/what makes you an authority on this issue? Not to mention how this is related to the topic at hand?

Ladies & Gentlemen, please let us resume our focus on what this forum is all about... namely sexuality.

Voluptuous

Stop evading questions and start answering them for a change.


cheers,

 

[Baal]

Minimum wage should be pro-rata depending on where you live regardless of the alleged economic repurcussions. I wish our government would run this country like a business for once and treat taxpayers income like they would treat gross revenues.... Cost of living as cost of sale etc... rent as SG&A and so forth... the bottom line is smaller when you live in the city then in the country and that has to change... Thats why there are so many revolving door country folks from kentucky in the city - they come here to make it and then realize that they cant afford anything but a single room with 5 roomates - so they either stick it out or leave - most of them leave...and I dont blame them. In massachussets, a guy I know who makes just as much money as me has a real condo style apartment with all the amenities - a nice car and cash to take out his lady friend every night of the week.

City taxes are too high and people cant make a decent living... raise it in the city and the country but make minimum wage proportionately higher in the city...

 

[Voluptuous]

Actually I agree with you - atleast as far as NAFTA. I can't imagine something that is more antethetical to free trade than NAFTA!

Or you simply don't care/don't have evidence. :dunno:

You didn't "say" so --- you just "implied so". You implied that Wal-Mart uses "capitalistic greed" to achieve its ends - namely "higher profits" :

I don't have to make things up - your words are up there for all to see. You associate "capitalism" with the 'problem' of "greed" - forgetting that "greed" is not limited to "capitalism".

Stop dodging the issue and put forth some answers. Don't give glib rhetoric like 99% of the politicians are wont to. You suggested that we reform the system - pray show us how. If not, accept you don't have any ideas as to how.

Either way is fine - just don't cop out...

We're back to square one --- it seems no one is interested in answeing my question about how raising minimum wages will not prevent either the rising of costs for goods/services or the increase in unemployment.

Instead, people seem to be content in hashing out more and more rhetoric - positive and/or negative --- often on subjects that have NOTHING to do with this thread.

And this has what to do with the price of tea in China?

And who/what makes you an authority on this issue? Not to mention how this is related to the topic at hand?

Stop evading questions and start answering them for a change.


cheers,

Thanks Roughneck for your articulate response. You do sound rather hostile & on the defensive... I actually agree with several of your views.:hatsoff: I'm not an American citizen nor do I reside in the United States so I think it would not be wise on my part to add further comments as I would require specifics. I do not wish to engage in a debate. I remember a time when most goods were all made in the US employing Americans but no matter where you shop today- the game has radically been altered. I have worked hard in the private sector most of my life so it pains me no end to witness abuse. I do my best to assist my local community in my leisure time. I am not evading any particular issue as I am not an economist.

Cheers,
Voluptuous:computer:

 

[Roughneck]

Thanks Roughneck for your articulate response. You do sound rather hostile & on the defensive...

Sorry if I came across as hostile - didn't mean to jump on you.

I remember a time when most goods were all made in the US employing Americans but no matter where you shop today- the game has radically been altered.

Oh no doubt - my hometown is Buffalo, NY and I have vivid memories of how the death of manufacturing industries have adversely affected the city!

But I actually believe it is for the better - today, Buffalo is starting to attract biotech and other high accuity and hi-tech industries.

I have worked hard in the private sector most of my life so it pains me no end to witness abuse.

I think this is where we fundamentally disagree - you see it as abuse, where I see government strongarm tactics as nothing short of thuggery.

I do my best to assist my local community in my leisure time. I am not evading any particular issue as I am not an economist.

Don't get me wrong - the reason I said that was too many people have opinions based on little to no knowledge of the subject at hand.

There is no shame in it - after all, one can't know everything. I readily admit my embarassing lack of knowledge about most gizmos and gadgets today. Or the arts. Or Chemistry.

However I also believe that while having an opinion is good - having an 'informed opinion' is better. Hence my request towards you to start dealing with substantiative comments rather than mere summaries.

And I am no real "economist" either and quite frankly I hated the subject in school (Hi D-Rock! ) My background is both public and private sectors. This is actually my third career and I work in a hospital.

But one doesn't have to be an economist to see the folly behind minimum wage. Please reference my first post in this thread where I posited a (simplified) scenario of the direct consequence of minimum wages.

cheers,
:hatsoff:

 

[blackbull1970]

It should be increased. But sometimes it seems pointless, cuz as soon as they raise it, the cost of living goes up and you right back where you started.

Peace.

 

[Jizm]

Increase it. Incease it more. Just to let ya know. Your hamburgers will cost you more. Your auto parts will cost you more. The list goes on. Everything will increase. I don't believe the results. Wow. I am lost with you.. Are you all a bunch of minimum wage fed fools? No. I know not. Be realistic. It encourages a lower class of living. It succumbs to the the illegal immigrantes. Not opinion, fact. Go on.

 

[pernicious_deed]

Against it. An extra few hundred dollars gross a year isn't going to move people above the poverty line. You also have to figure that consumers are the ones who abosorb the cost of this. People see all these companies as money grubbing, but companies need substantial revenue to continue to grow and keep our economy moving, and not stagnant. Minimum wage goes up, the cost of everything goes up, and people are still not making enough money.

 

[georges]

For especially in the telemarketing, marketing and sales sectors where I used and use to work, I have seen some people who worked perfectly and who gave excellent results but paid like shit. People who bust off their asses should be paid better. And people who were integrated in a company by friendship or by their parents and who are worthless and non working people should be fired without any explanation.

 

[YMIHERE]

The free market is supposed to be the result of many buyers and sellers in a market place with the invisible hand of competition allocating scare economic goods. No producers or consumers can have undo influence to control supply or demand. The free market exists in a social vacuum with just economic forces determining the outcome. Yea, right. The free market is like Christianity in that it’s never really been tried successfully.

The free market is not nature, from the get go it is man made. Free markets exist when there are governed by a collection of laws such as contract law and the uniform commerce code to name a few. These laws are in favor of the groups that have the political power to enact laws for there economic interest. For example, laws against banks paying interest on business checking account are part of the market. The federal government can not bargain for drug prices by the law. Employers must pay for workers compensation insurance. Licenses must be purchases and restaurants inspected for health. Employees are supposed to be in the work place legally before they can work. I could go on and on. The free market is a reflection of the commercial and labor laws and not nature. Government control is a bad thing if it goes too far, but it’s already in control. The question is what regulations, not how to end all regulations. To say the government should stay out of the free market is like saying referees and rules should stay out of sporting events.

Raising the minimum wage will increase cost but so what. That how it goes, if you can not make a profit you go out of business. Why should workers subsidies low price levels. We could get 50 cents pizzas if owners could pay 2 cents for labor. Slavery resulted in low cotton prices. It’s just an example of economic cost being shifted to the less politically powerful group. The capital and labor from failed business can be used for more pressing needs that can be sustained economically. There are more than enough things that need to be done with consumers willing to pay the price if they want it. It’s up to the entrepreneurs to find markets that can earn enough return on capital to pay wages there are within the law and make a profit. Otherwise it’s socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor. It would be a more humane economic growth model.

The level of the minimum wage will be determined by political considerations, just like all the parameters in the market place. A minimum wage of 1000 or 100 dollars an hour would indeed put out of business too many companies. But a 7 to 10 dollars wage level would force inefficient and exploitive companies out of business and free up resource for better use by the market.

There is no free lunch. Low wages level force the government to pay health cost and food stamps for the working poor. Wall Mart can have fatter profits, while the taxpayers pick up the cost to fix the mess. There is evidence that Wal-Mart actually cost communities more in welfare cost that the company and employees pay in taxes. Cost that should be in the mix of markets forces become external to the market and is shifted to society as a whole. You pay one way or another.

It’s not just kids who work for the minimum wage, many poor households have both spouses working 2 or 3 jobs but still can not afford health care or decent housing. Of course they could always work hard and get a better job. This is true for the individual but not the group. The social structure is such that there will always be poor, pushing to get better jobs just leaves a vacancy for another poor person to do the bottom work. Somebody has to pick the crops and do the dirty jobs. Since there is structural poverty lets make poverty less destructive.