Make your fucking minds up!

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
Should NEVER have gotten rid of the Harriers until we had a working replacement. This project is a farce.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/prime-minister-set-u-turn-strike-jets-091911833.html

Defence Secretary Philip Hammond has announced a U-turn over Britain's new fighter jets for the Royal Navy's new aircraft carriers because of "unacceptable cost growth and project delays".

Mr Hammond said ministers were reverting to plans by the former Labour government to acquire the jump-jet version of the US-built F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, of which there are three versions.

Britain had been looking at two for its carriers - the F-35B jump-jet version and the F-35C catapult-launched version.

While both can operate from aircraft carriers, the catapult-launched version had been the coalition's favourite as it has a greater range and can carry more munitions.

The B version carries about a third less fuel to make room for its vertical flight system.

The C type has been chosen by the US Navy and the French navy, which means the UK's F-35s should have been inter-operable with its allies.

But ministers have now opted for the F-35B jump-jet variant.

The cost of fitting the necessary catapults and arrester gear - "cats and traps" - to one of the Royal Navy's aircraft carriers is reported to have spiralled, making the C variant too expensive.

Mr Hammond told the Commons the costs of fitting the "cats and traps" had more than doubled to £2bn since the time of the Strategic Defence Security Review , adding that the Government would "not blindly pursue projects and ignore cost growth and delays".

He said delays to the F-35C programme meant they would have not been operational until 2023 - three years later than planned.

Mr Hammond told MPs: "Carrier strike with 'cats and traps' using the carrier variant jet no longer represents the best way of delivering carrier strike and I am not prepared to tolerate a three-year further delay to reintroducing our carrier strike capability.

"This announcement means we remain on course to deliver carrier strike in 2020 as a key part of our Future Force 2020."

The decision is an embarrassment for David Cameron , who strongly criticised the original decision by Labour to choose the short take-off and vertical landing jump-jet.

Shadow defence secretary Jim Murphy said the Government's "chaotic" handling of its carrier policy totally undermined its credibility on defence.

"This is a personal humiliation for David Cameron who will to return to Labour's policy, which he previously condemned," he said.

"This is a strategically vital element of the equipment programme on which our security and thousands of jobs depend.

"Yet ministers have treated it with hubristic incompetence, wasting hundreds of millions at a time of painful defence cuts."

Sky News' security and defence editor Sam Kiley said: "Essentially what has happened is that this has been a U-turn on a Government U-turn."

He added: "To be fair to the Government, two years ago the jump-jet version was looking as though it might not even work but recent tests, particularly of the version being sold to the British, are now going very well, so the decision has been taken to basically shelve the bad decision and go back to what might actually work.

"The good news for the Royal Navy is the jump-jet version means that the two new aircraft carriers can come into service."

While the US will be the primary operator of the F-35, The Netherlands, Canada, Turkey, Australia, Norway and Denmark will also be flying the warplane.

The Joint Strike Fighter will be known as the Joint Combat Aircraft in British service, with the US designation F-35 becoming F35.
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
The F35 attempts to hover on just two columns of thrust as opposed to the Harrier's 4; it's therefore too unstable to work as a jumpjet. See this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SLSiPsoF5Q

The F35 suffers poor maneuvarability & range, yet manages fuel consumption 4 times higher than an F16. Britain's F35's are less stealthy than America's because the yanks don't trust us with the tech.
Not that this matters as Russian SU27 variants with Irbis-E radars can detect an F22 at 5km less than the range than an F22 can detect THEM.
The long and the short of this is that the F35 is a failed military project, a bad idea and we should never have gotten rid of our long-serving Harriers without a replacement.
We've seen the failure of the F35 here and the Typhoon failed to be available to intercept Russian TU160 bombers over-flying English territory (so they'd have no hope against a bunch of ALCMs) OR to perform in Libya. This means that the R.A.F. has no operational fighters other than the aged and heavy Tornado. This is unacceptable given the collossal amount of money thrown at British military aircraft.

In short:
F35s don't work, cost massively more than they were supposed to, aren't as stealthy as they should be (and stealth tech itself is not the silver bullet defense contractors would have us believe), can't supercruise and should have been cancelled long ago.
 

Red XXX

Official Checked Star Member
What is needed are more people like Sir Sydney Camm and less people in committees doing nothing :thumbsup:
 

Mayhem

Banned
The cost of fitting the necessary catapults and arrester gear - "cats and traps" - to one of the Royal Navy's aircraft carriers is reported to have spiralled, making the C variant too expensive.

Seriously?! Only the Brits could fuck this up. How hard is it to hang a hook off the ass-end of an airplane?
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
Seriously?! Only the Brits could fuck this up. How hard is it to hang a hook off the ass-end of an airplane?
Well they're refusing to do it with the Tiffie so... :dunno:
As for only the Brits fucking things up, I'll have you know that the Brits have produced some fine weapons systems.
 

Mayhem

Banned
Sure, everyone has. And we agree completely in our derision and distaste for the F-35 and F-22. Ingenious solutions to non-existent problems.

As far as the Harrier goes, I really don't know too much about it. As such, I go by Mayhem's "No One Was Complaining" rule, and side with you on this too. Our Marine Corps is actually visiting your yard sale, as it turns out.

[In November 2011, the U.S. Navy purchased the UK's fleet of 72 retired Harrier II aircraft (this figure included the 63 single-seater GR.7/9/9As plus 9 twin-seater T.12/12As[97]) and replacement engines to provide spares for the existing USMC Harrier II fleet.[98][99]

However, according to another report dated March 2012, some of the seventy-two ex-British Harrier-IIs will fly again and the USMC plans to equip two squadrons with the latter GR.9/9A models due to the well maintained condition of the airframes prior to USMC inspection team arriving at RAF Cottesmore, where the aircraft was stored and maintained by a skeleton crew of engineers and technicians following their retirement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV-8B_Harrier_II#Operators

Unfortunately:
The AV-8B is to be replaced by the F-35B version of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, which had been slated to enter service in 2012. The Marine Corps has argued strongly in favor of the development of the F-35B, considering the Harrier's performance in Iraq, including its ability to use forward operating bases, to have reinforced the need for a V/STOL aircraft in the USMC arsenal.
...so we have dummies over here too.
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
Sure, everyone has. And we agree completely in our derision and distaste for the F-35 and F-22. Ingenious solutions to non-existent problems.

As far as the Harrier goes, I really don't know too much about it. As such, I go by Mayhem's "No One Was Complaining" rule, and side with you on this too. Our Marine Corps is actually visiting your yard sale, as it turns out.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AV-8B_Harrier_II#Operators

Unfortunately:

...so we have dummies over here too.
Don't remind me. If I remember the figues we sld all our Harriers to you for less than the price of a single F35.
:facepalm:
This is one reason why I'm no patriot.
As for the dummies, you never know, you may get lucky; they (eventually) cancelled the EFV after all.
 

larss

I'm watching some specialist videos
Hawker Siddeley Harrier. Possibly one of the best fighter planes ever to fly. The manoeuvrability of the aircraft is second to none and the idiots who decided to retire it before getting a viable replacement should be replaced.
 

Red XXX

Official Checked Star Member
Hawker Siddeley Harrier. Possibly one of the best fighter planes ever to fly. The manoeuvrability of the aircraft is second to none and the idiots who decided to retire it before getting a viable replacement should be replaced.
Yes but don't forget we've got around £100 million for them from the US Marines, just after we'd given them a £600 million refit :thumbsup: plus the MOD has much more pressing jobs - such as the purchasing of high quality office furniture for their swanky offices, you have to look at the bigger picture!
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
Yes but don't forget we've got around £100 million for them from the US Marines, just after we'd given them a £600 million refit :thumbsup: plus the MOD has much more pressing jobs - such as the purchasing of high quality office furniture for their swanky offices, you have to look at the bigger picture!
:yesyes:
:facepalm:
Look on the bright side though, those desks will be far more effective in fighting the taliban than all those squaddies that got laid off...
 
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