Is Harmon Killebrew right about baseball records and steroids?

[Friday on my mind]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlbpaa/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090723&content_id=6021158&vkey=mlbpaa2008&fext=.jsp

Killebrew: Reveal list of '03 positive tests
Hall of Famer says players should tell union to name names
By Doug Miller / MLB.com

Hall of Fame slugger Harmon Killebrew has spoken out about performance-enhancing **** use in baseball, and he says the list of 103 Major League players who failed the 2003 steroids tests should be made public.
"Throw the names out there," Killebrew, the longtime Twins star, told the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. "I would think the players who were clean should be telling the union to make the list public. To have the names piddling out there is ridiculous. That's the only way to clear the air and really put this stuff behind baseball."

Killebrew retired after the 1975 season with 573 career homers and was, at the time, ranked fifth on the all-time long-ball list, one behind Frank Robinson.

Since 2001, his total has been surpassed by Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds, who have been accused of steroid use, Sammy Sosa, whose name reportedly was on the 2003 list, and Ken Griffey Jr., who has not been linked to the use of performance-enhancing *****.

Alex Rodriguez, who admitted to steroid use from 2001-2003 while a member of the Texas Rangers, is one behind Killebrew's total with 572 homers.

"I like to hope that Junior was not among them," Killebrew said of Griffey. "I feel like he's not. And Jim Thome [who has 557 career homers] ... I hope he's not. But how can you know?

"As far as I'm concerned, Hank Aaron is the all-time home run champ, and Roger Maris should still have the [single-season] record at 61, but Barry Bonds is the name you see in the record book," Killebrew said.

"You wonder if it's worth it to have a record book."



I really agree with Harmon here.The records from McGuire,Bonds,A-Rod and the rest of the steroid aided should be disregarded.

What ya say?

 

[Ace Bandage]

I agree 100% with you about the records. I don't think Bonds, McGwire, or Sosa should even be acknowledged, period. As far as I'm concerned, Hammerin' Hank is the homerun king. He was one of the classiest players in baseball history in terms of how he handled himself. It's a travesty that, right now, Bonds is ahead of him. I can only hope that eventually, he is stricken from the record books.

I have to admit that the homerun chase in '98 brought me back to baseball. After the strike, I was determined not to pay any attention to MLB anymore. But when Slammin' Sammy started hitting homeruns for the Cubs, I had to watch. At the time, he became one of America's favorite players - a kind, genial guy who could hit the hell out of the ball. And he was playing on my favorite team. I really thought that year was something special. I witnessed a part of history - I can remember how excited I was the day Sammy hit his 63rd homerun. Looking back now, with all that's transpired between Sosa and McGwire, I feel I was cheated. We were all cheated. And that's a shame. One of baseball's all-time greatest stories was tainted. I loved both of those guys, but I don't want them in the Hall of Fame.

 

[habo9]

I think they should be allowed , if you are a racing car driver you can put things in your car to make it go faster , golfer used different shafts and stuff to make the ball go farther & more responsive........
I dont see anything wrong with taking ***** to make you do better , its just like a spoiler on a car or graphite shafts on golf clubs.........

 

[jasonk282]

I think they should be allowed , if you are a racing car driver you can put things in your car to make it go faster , golfer used different shafts and stuff to make the ball go farther & more responsive........
I dont see anything wrong with taking ***** to make you do better , its just like a spoiler on a car or graphite shafts on golf clubs.........

There is also rules that they must follow to modife cars in NASCAR. These are layers that **** look up to. They are role modles and should act accordingly. THEY SHOULD NOT BE IN THE HOF PERIOD. Rose should!

 

[meesterperfect]

Yeah , its a tough call.
On one hand its not fair to the players who don't/didn't use roids.
On the other hand if something is available to increase your performance and you choose to take advantage of it, why not .

Killebrew and those guys didn't have gatorade either.

I'm on the fence

 

[wolves39]

vote

 

[Will E Worm]

Since 2001, his total has been surpassed by Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds, who have been accused of steroid use, Sammy Sosa, whose name reportedly was on the 2003 list, and Ken Griffey Jr., who has not been linked to the use of performance-enhancing *****.

Alex Rodriguez, who admitted to steroid use from 2001-2003 while a member of the Texas Rangers, is one behind Killebrew's total with 572 homers.

Harmon Killebrew's true reason for wanting the records rescinded. :hatsoff:

After Ken Griffey Jr's non-performance on the Reds because of his fequent injuries, he needs to be looked at again.

"Injuries" I believe he faked sometimes. :tongue:

No one ever proved Barry Bonds did anything.

 

[ChefChiTown]

Steroids do NOT give you talent. Steroids do NOT give you the ability to hit a 95MPH slider. Steroids do NOT make you smarter. Steroids do NOT give you better vision at the plate. Steroids do NOT give you a .325 batting average. Steroids do NOT make you a better baseball player.

The impact that steroids have on a players' ability to hit a homerun is so small that it doesn't really matter. Is it cheating? Yes, and it's also against the rules. But, does it really impact the game in such a way that we have to take away ALL of the credit from what these players are accomplishing? No, not even close.

 

[Friday on my mind]

Steroids do NOT give you talent. Steroids do NOT give you the ability to hit a 95MPH slider. Steroids do NOT make you smarter. Steroids do NOT give you better vision at the plate. Steroids do NOT give you a .325 batting average. Steroids do NOT make you a better baseball player.

The impact that steroids have on a players' ability to hit a homerun is so small that it doesn't really matter. Is it cheating? Yes, and it's also against the rules. But, does it really impact the game in such a way that we have to take away ALL of the credit from what these players are accomplishing? No, not even close.

So you beleive that McGwire,Bonds and Sosa etc. are just that much better naturally than the former players like Ruth,Mantle,Aaron,Mays etc.

Also since the steroid issue became big and players started to be more closely scrutinized you don't see high 60 to even 70 eek homerun seasons anymore.Just look at the pics of Bonds as a young player than what he looked like later, it's like those old ads for Charles Atlas where you go from 90 pound weakling to buff muscled tough guy.Same with McGwire.

" Better living through chemistry ":1orglaugh

 

[zell]

Steroids do NOT give you talent. Steroids do NOT give you the ability to hit a 95MPH slider. Steroids do NOT make you smarter. Steroids do NOT give you better vision at the plate. Steroids do NOT give you a .325 batting average. Steroids do NOT make you a better baseball player.

The impact that steroids have on a players' ability to hit a homerun is so small that it doesn't really matter. Is it cheating? Yes, and it's also against the rules. But, does it really impact the game in such a way that we have to take away ALL of the credit from what these players are accomplishing? No, not even close.

I agree 110%,Chef.I don't know why people think that just because a guy starts juicing that he's gonna all of a sudden turn into a HOFer.

I think that there are only a few cases that you can look a a guy and say "what the fuck is he taking?"

Luis Gonzalez is the first name that I think of as a guy that I believe was on some sort of performance enhancing *****.2001 he hit 57 HR and only once has he hit over 30 in his career,before or after that year.

The only way to really determine if juice is helping a guy to hit more dingers is to look at every single HR that he's hit.If he's hitting balls that just make it to the warning track,then all of a sudden,they are flying out of the park,then I can see someone's argument,but no one wants to spend the time to look at something like that.

As for the big guys,juicing didn't make them hit more HRs,it just kept their bodies healthy and less injury prone,so that they could have the opportunity to hit more HRs.

 

[Marlo Manson]

I haven't taken the time to read the article yet, but IMHO I will emphatically say any player proven to having used steroids while they were playing should have there records rescinded!

There are allot of great players involved here, some of my favorites, but I think if any of them, have indubitably been proven to have used steroids @ anytime in their careers, or have admitted to using steroids @ any point in their career, their records or their #'s should be questioned, there should be an * placed by all of there statistic's to acknowledge that they @ some point took steroids.

IMHO Barry Bonds homerun record is Homering Hank Aaron is still the HOMERUN record holder/king, No if ands or buts about it. period end of discussion. :2 cents:

 

[JacknCoke]

Steroids do NOT give you talent.

True they do make you stronger

Steroids do NOT give you the ability to hit a 95MPH slider.

But they do give you the ability to hit it harder

Steroids do NOT make you smarter. Steroids do NOT give you better vision at the plate.

They do give you more confidence

Steroids do NOT give you a .325 batting average.

But they sure help the cause

Steroids do NOT make you a better baseball player.

They just improve your body size and power beyond any normal players possibilities

The era is tainted there is no doubt about it. But you have to look at it in a way that you can test positive for things that exist in every day ***** that are over the counter so who is to know if the list of 103 players are realistic or not. It maybe be they took to much Sudafed that day...

 

[JacknCoke]

Luis Gonzalez is the first name that I think of as a guy that I believe was on some sort of performance enhancing *****.2001 he hit 57 HR and only once has he hit over 30 in his career,before or after that year.

sorry if this is a double post but this completely contradicts your whole post. you agreed with Chefchitown that steroids dont't improve you as a player, its a natural talent thing, and then state that Conzalez used 'roids because his play was enhanced by 27 homeruns???

 

[zell]

sorry if this is a double post but this completely contradicts your whole post. you agreed with Chefchitown that steroids dont't improve you as a player, its a natural talent thing, and then state that Conzalez used 'roids because his play was enhanced by 27 homeruns???

But you obviously didn't read everything that I said.I said that there are a few cases where you have to say,WTF?and I think LuGo fits that criteria.
Also,you would have to see if his previous HRs were just scraping the top of the fence or were moon shots.

In '99 he had a .336 BA with over 200 hits,with only 26 HRs,career highs in those categories.In '01 he had 57 HRs with a .688 slugging,both career highs.I would think that in '99 when he had more ABs and hits,that he would have more HRs,but obviously it doesn't work that way.

Between '99 and '02 were his best years as a professional baseball player,which is probably the height of the "steroid era".All signs point to him being on the juice,or maybe,he just happens to be a player that for those years just "got it" in regards to his ability to hit.

If you look at guys like McGwire or Bonds,they are and always have been considered home run hitters,and were amongst the league leaders each year.McGwire hit 49 in his second season,so does that mean that he was juicing then,when he was a hell of a lot thinner than when he hit 70?

Bonds consistently hit 30-40 HRs every year when he left the Pirates for the Giant,that's a good 9 years before he broke the record.Does that mean that he was juicing all along as well?Probably not.

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that there's always an exception to the rule.Luis Gonzalez is the exception because he was never considered a "slugger" before he when on a hitting rampage from '99 to '02.

 

[Magnet]

So you beleive that McGwire,Bonds and Sosa etc. are just that much better naturally than the former players like Ruth,Mantle,Aaron,Mays etc.

Also since the steroid issue became big and players started to be more closely scrutinized you don't see high 60 to even 70 eek homerun seasons anymore.Just look at the pics of Bonds as a young player than what he looked like later, it's like those old ads for Charles Atlas where you go from 90 pound weakling to buff muscled tough guy.Same with McGwire.

" Better living through chemistry ":1orglaugh

LOL

Just because McGwire hit 70 HR's in a season dosent mean he is better than Ruth, Mantle, or any former greats.

So I guess since Burhlele got 45 consecutive hitters out he is the best pitcher of all time.

SOme people act like the MLB had nothing to do this. They have changed the ball a number of times, and there is even talk they changed the ball for this year. (hmmm...maybe because they want more HR's). Look how fuckin tiny ball parks are nowadays. Thats the real reason we see HR records being shattered.

If Steriods really impacted the games, and I mean really, how come we dont see guys breaking the most steals in a season record, huh?

There has been various things throughout the years that gave certain players advantages over the years past. Such as bats and gloves.

Lets scratch all the fielding records of players who used modern day gloves, or all the hitting records for guys who used maple bats

The records should be kept the same, with no asteriks, no disreguarding because steriods were part of the games and not for just one year.

Sure it would be nice to see the games clean, but it dosent bother me that players used steriods. It was part of the games, and its the same reason weight lifters use protein and creatine. (And just to let you know, for those two supplements to work you still have to eat right and work your ass to get results)

Lets face it, science got better, why are we holding it against the players for taking advantage of it?

 

[habo9]

I would rather watch ******* up superhumans anytime , just think of the games you would get they would be brilliant , a lot better than usual

 

[ChefChiTown]

So you beleive that McGwire,Bonds and Sosa etc. are just that much better naturally than the former players like Ruth,Mantle,Aaron,Mays etc.

Also since the steroid issue became big and players started to be more closely scrutinized you don't see high 60 to even 70 eek homerun seasons anymore.Just look at the pics of Bonds as a young player than what he looked like later, it's like those old ads for Charles Atlas where you go from 90 pound weakling to buff muscled tough guy.Same with McGwire.

" Better living through chemistry ":1orglaugh

The game was extremely different back then, which makes it impossible to compare the different generations and come to a fair comparison. There are sooooo many differences in how the game is played that it's actually astounding that some even try to compare the game of today to the game from back in the day.

For instance, pitchers didn't throw as many different types of pitches back then. Their arsenal mainly consisted of a fastball, change up and curveball. But, now-a-days, pitchers throw sliders, circle change ups, split-fingered fastballs, knuckleballs, four-seam fastballs, two-seam fastballs, palmballs, 3 fingered change ups, sinkers, 10-4 curveballs, 12-6 curveballs, screwballs, etc.

So, arguably, the hitters today have a much, much more difficult task to accomplish when they step up to the plate because they have waaaaay more pitches to look out for.

That's just one of the many, many incomparable facets of the game that just can NOT be compared in a fair manner.

I agree 110%,Chef.I don't know why people think that just because a guy starts juicing that he's gonna all of a sudden turn into a HOFer.

I think that there are only a few cases that you can look a a guy and say "what the fuck is he taking?"

Luis Gonzalez is the first name that I think of as a guy that I believe was on some sort of performance enhancing *****.2001 he hit 57 HR and only once has he hit over 30 in his career,before or after that year.

The only way to really determine if juice is helping a guy to hit more dingers is to look at every single HR that he's hit.If he's hitting balls that just make it to the warning track,then all of a sudden,they are flying out of the park,then I can see someone's argument,but no one wants to spend the time to look at something like that.

As for the big guys,juicing didn't make them hit more HRs,it just kept their bodies healthy and less injury prone,so that they could have the opportunity to hit more HRs.

I've made a few posts about this exact thing before, but I'll add to what you have already said...

Alfonso Soriano
Grady Sizemore
Paul Konerko
Jermaine Dye
Magglio Ordonez
Hank Blalock
Mark Teixeira
Magglio Ordonez
Etc.

Those aren't the biggest, most muscle-bound guys on the field, but they still hit their fair share of HRs. Why? Because, they're all good hitters who know how to hit the ball. Swinging your bat as hard as you can isn't going to get you many homeruns. But, knowing how to swing the bat, knowing how to hit different pitches and having an enormous amount of talent will help get you plenty of homeruns.

True they do make you stronger

But, they can't make you hit the ball in the first place. If it was that easy to hit homeruns based off of strength, then body builders would be getting offered multi-million dollars contracts by every single MLB team. Yet...they're not. Why? Because, no matter how strong you are (even with the assistance of steroids), if you can't hit the ball in the first place, you're never going to hit a homerun.

But they do give you the ability to hit it harder

Major League Baseball pitchers throw in the levels above 90MPH. In all honesty, it doesn't take much strength to hit a 90+MPH fastball over the fence. All you have to do is "stick your bat out" and hit the ball. The speed of the ball and physics will a lot of the work for you - not muscle strength. Does it help? Yes, but physics, paired with talent, is what helps the most.

They do give you more confidence

Baseball players are the most superstitous people in the entire world. They get confidence from all over the place. Pre-game rituals, prayers, wearing the same underwear for every game, not stepping on the foul lines, tapping their bat on the plate, etc. Steroids is just one of the thousands and thousands and thousands of things that can give a baseball player confidence. I don't buy that a superstituous baseball player is going to gain more confidence from steroids than they would from all of the other rituals that they have been practicing for their whole life.

But they sure help the cause

No, they don't. Your strength can't make you aim your bat and hit the ball with more accuracy. In fact, some of the best batting averages are held by players who are arguably some of the smallest on the field. Look at Tony Gwynn, who, in my opinion, is the best hitter of all-time. He's not buff and muscle-toned. He's a squishy, somewhat out-of-shape-looking goon that didn't have much power. But, what he did have was a tremendous amount of talent, which outweighs muscle strength any day of the week - especially in the game of baseball - which is why he was such an outstanding hitter.

They just improve your body size and power beyond any normal players possibilities

What's a normal player's possibility though? There are countless examples of players that have never taken steroids during their career who have put up remarkable numbers.

The era is tainted there is no doubt about it. But you have to look at it in a way that you can test positive for things that exist in every day ***** that are over the counter so who is to know if the list of 103 players are realistic or not. It maybe be they took to much Sudafed that day...

Do steroids taint the records? Yes, absolutely. Why? Because, we'll never know what would've happened if those players didn't take steroids. But, we can't sit here and deny that those players who were/are taking steroids are amazingly talented baseball players who didn't need PEDs in order to make them stars. The player I'll use for this example is Mark McGwire.

When Mark McGwire first entered the league, he was an instant success. He immediately became a feared power hitter who belted out homerun after homerun after homerun. Here are his HR numbers throughout his career...

3 (played 18 games)
49
32
33
39
22
42
9 (played 27 games)
9 (played 47 games)
39
52
58
70
65
32
29

It wasn't until McGwire hit 70 HRs that people started focusing on the possibility of steroid usage. But, look at his numbers BEFORE that. They're fucking sick!!! He hit 387 HRs BEFORE people thought of him as a possible steroid user. That's 32.25 HRs/year, even with 3 extremely shortened years in which he didn't really hit any homeruns!!! That's TALENT, not steroids.

Like I said, the only thing that taints the numbers is the fact that we'll never know what would've happened if these players never took steroids. But, we still can't take away the talent that these players possess, which is the main ingredient in being a successful baseball player.

:2 cents:

 

[shayd]

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlbpaa/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090723&content_id=6021158&vkey=mlbpaa2008&fext=.jsp

Killebrew: Reveal list of '03 positive tests
Hall of Famer says players should tell union to name names
By Doug Miller / MLB.com

Hall of Fame slugger Harmon Killebrew has spoken out about performance-enhancing **** use in baseball, and he says the list of 103 Major League players who failed the 2003 steroids tests should be made public.
"Throw the names out there," Killebrew, the longtime Twins star, told the Minneapolis Star-Tribune. "I would think the players who were clean should be telling the union to make the list public. To have the names piddling out there is ridiculous. That's the only way to clear the air and really put this stuff behind baseball."

Killebrew retired after the 1975 season with 573 career homers and was, at the time, ranked fifth on the all-time long-ball list, one behind Frank Robinson.

Since 2001, his total has been surpassed by Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds, who have been accused of steroid use, Sammy Sosa, whose name reportedly was on the 2003 list, and Ken Griffey Jr., who has not been linked to the use of performance-enhancing *****.

Alex Rodriguez, who admitted to steroid use from 2001-2003 while a member of the Texas Rangers, is one behind Killebrew's total with 572 homers.

"I like to hope that Junior was not among them," Killebrew said of Griffey. "I feel like he's not. And Jim Thome [who has 557 career homers] ... I hope he's not. But how can you know?

"As far as I'm concerned, Hank Aaron is the all-time home run champ, and Roger Maris should still have the [single-season] record at 61, but Barry Bonds is the name you see in the record book," Killebrew said.

"You wonder if it's worth it to have a record book."



I really agree with Harmon here.The records from McGuire,Bonds,A-Rod and the rest of the steroid aided should be disregarded.

What ya say?

In principle I would agree, especially with regard to releasing the entire list. However there are some practical problems with striking all of the players from the list, and that is the fact that past greats have come out and said they've used "Greenies" as their called during their career (Mike Schmidt comes to mind). Now if you're talking strictly about steroids I would have an easier time accepting that. But please for the love of everything MLB, release the damn names instead of having them leak out once a month and drawing this out for years and years.

 

[Mrs Jolly]

I thought the big deal with steroids was that they enabled you to keep training hard with a short recovery time. Roided up players never had the 'dog days of summer' slump. They were as strong and fresh at the end of the year as they were at the beginning. Of course the bulk and power didn't hurt either.

I was once told that in the life of baseball (not a game I follow closely so I am willing to be corrected) there have been changes to the bat, the ball, the mound, the field, the rules, the clothing, the lighting, the diets of the players, the number of games played, the number of pitches thrown by individuals on the mound and the days of rest between. (to say nothing of the different rules for the two leagues.) The point of it all was to establish that comparisons across the eras were always going to be problematic.

I would like to know who is on the list if only to stop some of the santimonious posturing. A league that didn't ban roids, although they knew the sport was riddled them, can't turn round and bar players from the hall of fame.

 

[wasslkitty]

There is also rules that they must follow to modife cars in NASCAR. These are layers that **** look up to. They are role modles and should act accordingly. THEY SHOULD NOT BE IN THE HOF PERIOD. Rose should!

You are saying that Pete Rose should be in the hall of Fame/ be reinstated, because according to you, he didn't break the rules.

Yes he did. Most importantly he broke the one rule, the only rule that is posted in every major and ***** league clubhouse/locker room, the rule that says that betting on baseball games is ******* and sets out the punishment for breaking said rule.

But it's not just that Rose thumbed his nose at the rule for over 10 years, it's that after he was found out and ****** from baseball, he continued to do nothing but lie about at every opportunity as well as launching vicious attacks on then commissioner Fay Vincent, referring to him as "that cripple."

The only reason that Rose admitted that he had been lying and that he had in fact been betting on baseball was that he had a book coming out.