Immigration, Refugees, Asylum, Illegal aliens and everything in between

maildude99

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Here in Michigan, there's another side to this view. In many ways, immigrants--illegal or otherwise--contribute positively to the economy and society in general. So, intrepid and budding sociologists and urban planners, how do we weed out the mucky muck while allowing the productive and useful...and law-abiding...to stay?
 
Here in Michigan, there's another side to this view. In many ways, immigrants--illegal or otherwise--contribute positively to the economy and society in general. So, intrepid and budding sociologists and urban planners, how do we weed out the mucky muck while allowing the productive and useful...and law-abiding...to stay?
At least for Canada, one thing would be give a deadline to move out of free housing once they have a work permit.

Currently, refugee claimants can get a work permit during the 1-2 years their claim is waiting to be heard. They also get free hotel/food/etc when they make their claim. The purpose was to give them free housing until they got their work permit (usually within a couple months, if not weeks), and they would leave the free hotel and go work. The problem is that there is no deadline or "eviction", and there are a number of those who just ride the gravy train, even after getting the work permit.
 
I think what is also often lost is that large groups of needed immigrants often started their own communities or flocked together to one place a large number of times in the U.S.'s past. I don't know why people often forget that, or why it's seen as some aberration now.

...Well other than the people that do it now aren't white. So to some, the people that did it in the past were white so it doesn't count.
 

Theopolis Q. Hossenffer

Every Nation Needs a God-Emperor!
I think what is also often lost is that large groups of needed immigrants often started their own communities or flocked together to one place a large number of times in the U.S.'s past. I don't know why people often forget that, or why it's seen as some aberration now.

...Well other than the people that do it now aren't white. So to some, the people that did it in the past were white so it doesn't count.
And in the past if you weren't the "right kind" of white you were hated just as much as today's non whites. It's human nature. We need to fight against it.
 

georges

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georges

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Seems like the US has the same problem with Canada where they are spending more on illegals than their own citizens.
How do you call a party that favor illegals instead of its own country born citizens as well as legal immigrants? An unpatriotic party which has absolutely no values and no respect for democracy and nor respect for its country constitution. This party should be removed from power. Also requesting no ID for voting is allowing voter fraud. In our french elections, you are mandatorily requested to present an id card and a voter card otherwise you don't even have the right to vote. This trend comes often from the left wing not if not never from the right wing. People blame conservative of all miseries but they should understand one thing than the country born citizens come always first and this is not negotiable. Social spending when it becomes irresponsibly managed and always given to those who have never contributed to anything is creating an unfair system where some people are parasiting and litterally abuse of such systems this is the case of the Nordic countries but also the case of France, Netherlands and Belgium and when on the other side people who need something and who contributed economically get nothing or a middle finger. This leads people to vote for a certain type of parties because enough is enough. Just understand the logic , you work and you pay taxes and the taxes are redistributed in order to help those who have contributed to nothing. We are witnessing this in France since 40 years and this has caused the debt to spike massively but also caused a lot of anger and dislike of the traditional political parties who are just spouting empty promises with loads of words .
 

gmase

Nattering Nabob of Negativism
How do you call a party that favor illegals instead of its own country born citizens as well as legal immigrants?
You start with an illogical question.

What party is that? Neither US party favors illegals over citizens. The US has 161 million registered voters, so focusing on the 11 million illegals would be silly by almost any standard.
 
How do you call a party that favor illegals instead of its own country born citizens as well as legal immigrants? An unpatriotic party which has absolutely no values and no respect for democracy and nor respect for its country constitution. This party should be removed from power.
This is just my opinion, but I think many world leaders don't want to be seen as "the bad guy who turns away refugees". The fact is that most, if all nations want to be strict on who they accept as refugees, otherwise it's going to be abused. Not everyone who claims to be a refugee actually deserves protection. But politicians want to be "politically correct" and not say this outright.

There are those who make up stories - Like those from Nigeria (and other homophobic countries) who are married and have kids, but say they are "bisexual" once they leave Nigeria.

And there are those whose stories are true, but don't deserve protection. You could be persecuted for your religious beliefs/ethnic identity in your home country, but also killed people via religious terrorism.

That's barely scratching the surface. Only a portion of those claiming asylum/refugee protection are actual "refugees", but most UN signatory countries are going to pay for them when they first arrive in their country. Which is why the US southern border is an issue.


Also requesting no ID for voting is allowing voter fraud.
Yeah, that one confuses me too. Apparently ID requirements suppress the minority vote. So long as any government issued photo ID works, I disagree.

There are even studies that show that voter ID laws don't significantly affect turnout:
https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/3/15/14909764/study-voter-id-racism

It's true that voter fraud isn't a big thing, but that shouldn't prevent laws to prevent it.
 

gmase

Nattering Nabob of Negativism
Help me understand which party is favoring illegal immigrants over citizens? Some facts would be helpful.

Border crossings in the US have substantially gone down in 2024 due to the restrictions Biden put into effect in June. It may be called an election year gimmick by some, but Trump’s interference earlier this year was a bigger gimmick. A bipartisan deal was in place and just needed a ‘yes.’
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/u-s-mexico-border-migrant-crossings-reach-new-biden-era-low/
 
Help me understand which party is favoring illegal immigrants over citizens? Some facts would be helpful.

I refer to you my earlier post where the Canadian govt is spending more on each refugee claimant than the income of an average Full-time working Canadian citizen. And this is before they are even deemed as refugees - this is just people who just came into Canada and filed a refugee claim. And that's not minimum wage or part-time income - that's the National average for FULL-Time work

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/pol...gee claimants stayed,at the beginning of 2023.

A reply from the federal government to a parliamentary question revealed that almost 5,000 asylum seekers, including from Nigeria, Kenya, Venezuela and Colombia, were accommodated in hotels during this period. On average, refugee claimants stayed 113 days in hotels at a cost of $208 per person each day, including room and meals and security

Simple math shows the Canadian government paid $75,920 per year per asylum seeker.

https://www.jobillico.com/blog/en/t... September 2023, the,had in the previous year.
As of September 2023, the average Canadian salary is $1,215.02 per week or $63,181.04 per year for full-time employees.

You can see the problem here.

I'd be curious to see how much the US is spending per asylum seeker and how that compares to the US average income.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
I refer to you my earlier post where the Canadian govt is spending more on each refugee claimant than the income of an average Full-time working Canadian citizen. And this is before they are even deemed as refugees - this is just people who just came into Canada and filed a refugee claim. And that's not minimum wage or part-time income - that's the National average for FULL-Time work

I'd be curious to see how much the US is spending per asylum seeker and how that compares to the US average income.
Well when you have irresponsible spending it leads to debt and even more debt and the end like in France, the average Full time French working French citizen is being taxed about 40 to 45% on his monthly income without any visibility on where his money or is spent. Do I consider this as fair ? No, it isn't but this has been implemented in France back in the 80's from the time of where socialists and their goddamn self-righteousness have eaten away at government institutions, especially social, judicial and economic ones. I was never fond of socialists of any kind also because as Thomas Jefferson said "My reading of history convinces me that most bad government has grown out of too much government." plus they are hardly what I would call patriotic people. Which is true

An interesting article here describing the Democratic's party illegal parallel immigration system, it is very interesting to read because we learn that a Democrat elected Mayor in a town of Texas recognizes that there is real boarder crisis and illegal immigration problem, we also learn in that very same article that the Biden administration was shamed into action after mounted Border Patrol agents prevented 15,000 Haitians desperate for food from entering Del Rio. President Joe Biden even falsely accused the agents of whipping the migrants. He never apologized for that even after it was shown that he was lying about them. (we knew how much the Biden administration appreciates law enforcement (insert sarcasm here)). https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/in_focus/3179048/democratic-party-illegal-parallel-immigration/
When a government prevents the border patrol to do their jobs , it leads to a lot of questions, is the government interested to protect the safety of the country against illegals? Does the government really care and understand the thankless job of law enforement officers ? Those are the questions that need to be asked and adressed
 

gmase

Nattering Nabob of Negativism
I refer to you my earlier post where the Canadian govt is spending more on each refugee claimant than the income of an average Full-time working Canadian citizen. And this is before they are even deemed as refugees - this is just people who just came into Canada and filed a refugee claim. And that's not minimum wage or part-time income - that's the National average for FULL-Time work
So 5,000 people got a benefit. Are you suggesting those 5k got better treatment than 33 million Canadians? Is Trudeau more concerned about them than Canadians? Do Canadian taxes pay for services used by ordinary Canadians? That is, the government is spending on average citizens I presume (e.g., health care, pension, etc.) Granted the math cited is odd, but is it a realistic comparison? Do the asylum seekers eventually contribute to the overall economy?

I'd be curious to see how much the US is spending per asylum seeker and how that compares to the US average income.
Me too. Maybe @georges or Dino can provide it. Based on a search, the costs would seem to be comparable in the US - relationally speaking.

Personally, I would like to spend less money on immigrants and border control. And I do have a NIMBY attitude toward the situation. I would prefer a real solution be implemented rather than some half-assed political stunts. No US President has resolved the situation - including Trump during his 4 years.
 
So 5,000 people got a benefit. Are you suggesting those 5k got better treatment than 33 million Canadians?
It's more than 5000:
This year, Ottawa has been footing the bill for approximately 4,000 hotel rooms for 7,300 asylum seekers, many of whom have transferred from provincial shelters and churches, according to Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada.
And that's just in 1 year. From the government's actual stats:
https://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/statistics/Pages/Irregular-border-crosser-statistics.aspx
There were 113,60 refugee claims made by illegal entrants between Feb 2017 to June 2024, all of whom would have gotten the royal treatment. And the numbers for 2024 were only lower because Roxham was closed.

And this is only claimants who entered Canada illegally. It doesn't include those who entered Canada legally, or who followed the proper refugee claim procedures.


Is Trudeau more concerned about them than Canadians? Do Canadian taxes pay for services used by ordinary Canadians? That is, the government is spending on average citizens I presume (e.g., health care, pension, etc.) Granted the math cited is odd, but is it a realistic comparison? Do the asylum seekers eventually contribute to the overall economy?
JT is more concerned about looking good, especially when it's not on his dime. Just look at that infamous "Welcome to Canada tweet" that started this all.

To your point about how much the govt spends on citizens, also keep in mind that $208/day for refugees is just for rooms and food. It doesn't include the costs of government services like healthcare, education, etc. If you're not on welfare, how much does your government pay towards your rent and food?
 

gmase

Nattering Nabob of Negativism
To your point about how much the govt spends on citizens, also keep in mind that $208/day for refugees is just for rooms and food. It doesn't include the costs of government services like healthcare, education, etc. If you're not on welfare, how much does your government pay towards your rent and food?
Good question. My government pays me nothing directly (since COVID relief that is), but my tax burden went down with the last overhaul, does that count?
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
Good question. My government pays me nothing directly (since COVID relief that is), but my tax burden went down with the last overhaul, does that count?
You should have visibility where your money goes by because if your money goes to pay people who come illegally in your country and benefit from free social housing, free health care and free social housing with you own money and who have never worked nor even contributed economically to it, this is what TV Strip and I are trying to explain you. Socialism can be explained in one picture
 

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gmase

Nattering Nabob of Negativism
You should have visibility where your money goes by because if your money goes to pay people who come illegally in your country and benefit from free social housing, free health care and free social housing with you own money and who have never worked nor even contributed economically to it, this is what TV Strip and I are trying to explain you. Socialism can be explained in one picture
I appreciate your efforts at explaining it to me. Don’t believe for a moment I do NOT know. I understand your argument. We disagree in our opinions.

You can Google (and I have) the information about where US tax dollars are spent and how much refugees cost now and may benefit the economy over the longer-term. Because they are not contributing now does not mean they will not contribute in the future.

We can argue about where the taxes are spent. How the taxes are collected is equally important.
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
I appreciate your efforts at explaining it to me. Don’t believe for a moment I do NOT know. I understand your argument. We disagree in our opinions.

You can Google (and I have) the information about where US tax dollars are spent and how much refugees cost now and may benefit the economy over the longer-term. Because they are not contributing now does not mean they will not contribute in the future.

We can argue about where the taxes are spent. How the taxes are collected is equally important.
We will again disagree because in the very same link I posted above https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/in_focus/3179048/democratic-party-illegal-parallel-immigration/ , there are three important things that you have neglected to say, I quote:
Point 1) "Importantly, every migrant in the U.S. due to Biden’s CBP One app and CHNV program is as illegal as Jose Ibarra, the illegal immigrant charged with killing Laken Riley. Ibarra was arrested for illegally crossing the southern border in September 2022 and released into the U.S. by Biden on parole. The legal authority used to release him where he could kill Riley is the same legal authority used to parole inadmissible aliens through the CBP One app and CHNV program. There is no legal difference between the two." that leads to the conclusion that the Biden Harris administration clearly doesn't give a single serious fuck even if an illegal foreign criminal alien enters the country illegally
Point 2) "What the parole programs accomplish is that they allow Democrats and their media allies to say inadmissible aliens entered the country “legally” and have a “legal status. But although they may have a thimble of “legal status,” they are still inadmissible aliens. When their temporary parole status expires, they will be every bit an illegal immigrant as every other illegal immigrant who sneaked into the country." creating a system where a parole status board makes an illegal on the short term or mid term offically legal isn't a solution to the illegal immigration is the problem. Instead it encourages more illegals to come illegaly in the country.
Point 3) "In theory, migrants paroled into the U.S. must return home after the purpose of their parole is over. But Biden and Harris have no intention of returning any of their parolees back to their home countries, ever. Instead, the Democrats are creating a permanent underclass of quasi-legal migrants with uncertain futures. This permanent underclass will drive down wages while driving up the costs of housing, education, and healthcare." I couldn't agree more with this statement because it is based on facts.
Have you seen by yourself any real benefit over the long run with illegal aliens in the USA? In Europe , asylum seekers are often more a problem than a benefit because they often take advantage of a nanny state which should even't exist and they always get priority before French born citizens. We also have our own usual suspects in Europe especially in France, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark and Finland who leech off the social system for decades while not working nor even contributing to something positive but instead an important number of them are carreer criminal thugs or drug dealers or some times caids of organized crime with a serious rapsheet or worse radical islamic terrorists.
 

gmase

Nattering Nabob of Negativism
We will again disagree because in the very same link I posted above https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/in_focus/3179048/democratic-party-illegal-parallel-immigration/ , there are three important things that you have neglected to say, I quote:
Point 1) "Importantly, every migrant in the U.S. due to Biden’s CBP One app and CHNV program is as illegal as Jose Ibarra, the illegal immigrant charged with killing Laken Riley. Ibarra was arrested for illegally crossing the southern border in September 2022 and released into the U.S. by Biden on parole. The legal authority used to release him where he could kill Riley is the same legal authority used to parole inadmissible aliens through the CBP One app and CHNV program. There is no legal difference between the two." that leads to the conclusion that the Biden Harris administration clearly doesn't give a single serious fuck even if an illegal foreign criminal alien enters the country illegally
Point 2) "What the parole programs accomplish is that they allow Democrats and their media allies to say inadmissible aliens entered the country “legally” and have a “legal status. But although they may have a thimble of “legal status,” they are still inadmissible aliens. When their temporary parole status expires, they will be every bit an illegal immigrant as every other illegal immigrant who sneaked into the country." creating a system where a parole status board makes an illegal on the short term or mid term offically legal isn't a solution to the illegal immigration is the problem. Instead it encourages more illegals to come illegaly in the country.
Point 3) "In theory, migrants paroled into the U.S. must return home after the purpose of their parole is over. But Biden and Harris have no intention of returning any of their parolees back to their home countries, ever. Instead, the Democrats are creating a permanent underclass of quasi-legal migrants with uncertain futures. This permanent underclass will drive down wages while driving up the costs of housing, education, and healthcare." I couldn't agree more with this statement because it is based on facts.
Have you seen by yourself any real benefit over the long run with illegal aliens in the USA? In Europe , asylum seekers are often more a problem than a benefit because they often take advantage of a nanny state which should even't exist and they always get priority before French born citizens. We also have our own usual suspects in Europe especially in France, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark and Finland who leech off the social system for decades while not working nor even contributing to something positive but instead an important number of them are carreer criminal thugs or drug dealers or some times caids of organized crime with a serious rapsheet or worse radical islamic terrorists.
The good news is that Trump has a 50/50 shot of getting back in office and ridding us of the problem like he did during his first term. ;)
 

georges

Moderator
Staff member
The good news is that Trump has a 50/50 shot of getting back in office and ridding us of the problem like he did during his first term. ;)
I will wait for the final result of the election but what I am sure about is that his border policies aren't the same ones that joe had and that he has a much tougher stance regarding illegal immigration.
 
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