Gun Control is Coming - But Listen to This!

[Jack Davenport]

Unenumerated rights are often considered by SCOTUS when handing down decisions and the intent of the framers and can dovetail nicely with clarifying any ambiguities within the constitution.

The argument could be made that people convicted of violent crimes are domestic enemies and because providing for the common defense of the country is government's duty, arming proven domestic enemies are a dereliction of that duty.

The reasoning behind it is much the same as why a multiple DWI offender sometimes is never granted the privilege of a driver's license again.

They pose a very real threat to society.

 

[MMMariah]

No background checks? that's wreckless. Look at what's happening in this country. Look what happened a few weeks ago and then again yesterday. Crazy people are buying guns and ammo and then committing mass murder to live out some final fantasy. If you're ok with giving them easy access to weapons then let's hope that people YOU care about aren't victims of it.

 

[xfire]

Crime prevention is a complex issue, but it starts by educating individuals and teaching them a sense of responsibility and civic duty. People have to have a sense of hope that they can be successful, that hard work means they have opportunities to advance and that a life of crime isn't the answer. I used to work for the Texas Department of Corrections (currently called the Texas Department of Criminal Justice), and I came into contact with some really hard working career criminals, if these guys had put as much effort into running legit businesses they could have been very successful, but because they weren't given the proper skills and tools to succeed outside of a life of crime these guys ended up locked up with criminal records that will follow them for the rest of their lives and the stigmatization and collateral continuing punishments that will guarantee that most of them will end up back behind bars. Our criminal justice system has been turned into an industry, as much as JustBC may take exception to it being characterized that way, it's an accurate assessment, and it's one of those issues that's going to have be dealt with eventually, and the sooner the better. Yes, we need to lock bad guys away for a long time, but for people that have committed one of the "stupid" felonies, they deserve a second chance that isn't loaded for failure and that's the way the current system is designed.

 

[MMMariah]

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WITH MENTAL ISSUES!!!!!!!

Our prison system is no longer even trying to rehab anyone. They offer classes and shit but they are in the business of housing inmates are are a product that is profitable. In Scandinavia for example if you aren't a violent criminal you aren't in a traditional prison. You get a room with a locked door. You are taught a skill and get therapy and they do everything possible to prepare you to return to society to be a contributor and thrive without crime. Here the people who got caught growing weed in their garden are thrown in with murderers and rapists.

So you need to kiss your liberal ideal of a prison system that actually rehabilitates inmates because its not gonna happen. If you live by the rules and don't break laws that harm other people then fine, you get to enjoy the rights of being an american and all that comes with it. But once you violate someone else with violence then you forfeit some of those rights. Gun possession being the first on the list.

So here's a legit question for you. Should someone who raped and molested a child be free to sit in parks and schoolyards once he's off parole? By your standards they should have every right. As well sex offender registration shouldn't be allowed and I shouldn't be able to find out if a child molester lives on my street. So let's hear it....stand up for child molesters.

 

[xfire]

Sex crimes should be a capital offense. How's that for a librul idear?

 

[MMMariah]

I totally agree but not all sex crimes are the same. i.e. an 18 year old who has sex with his 17 year old girlfriend.

And you didn't answer my question

 

[xfire]

So change the laws so that it's not a crime for an 18 year old to have sex with his 17 year old girlfriend. To answer your question, someone who rapes and molests a child should be put to death. I kinda implied that with the reply above, but just to be perfectly clear, that's my answer.

 

[MMMariah]

You're NOT being perfectly clear.

there are many things on the books that should be changed, I agree. But as of TODAY, do you believe that people who have served their time for molesting kids should have zero restrictions to go to parks and schools and places where they will interact with children?

what about child porn? what if someone is caught looking at it but not doing anything physical but you know they are into kids? Afterh they do their time should they be able to get another computer with internet access and be allowed to go where kids are without restrictions TODAY? Not in a perfect world, but TODAY.

 

[xfire]

Pedophilia is an affliction from which there is no cure, so using current law, no, I don't think they should be free without restriction. The law should be changed to make pedophilia and other sex crimes capital offenses. There is no easy fix, and it took a long time to get to where we are today and I don't expect to get to a better place to come quickly.

 

[MMMariah]

Again, avoiding the question. You keep saying what should be....but Im asking you AS OF TODAY with current laws, do you think sex offenders who have molested children and done their time be free to go anywhere that they wish including where they will interact with kids.

And I could argue that someone who is a serial abusive and violent person will always be as such and probably more so after time in prison. So don't dodge the question. Do you stand for the rights of child molesters?

 

[xfire]

I didn't avoid the question, "using current law, no, I don't think they should be free without restriction", that's my answer. My point is that it's all connected and laws can't be unilaterally changed without affecting others, law of unintended consequences and we as a society should have the courage to fix them when recognize it. Do you seek any other direct answers that you feel I've avoided giving (even though I didn't)?

 

[MMMariah]

Finally! And you said exactly what I thought you'd say! Ok for one but not for another even the its the EXACT same thing.

So what is the difference with your argument then??? Using your own words, a person who has served their time should have full civil liberties restored under the 8th amendment without restriction. Go back and read it if you need to be refreshed. Sound familiar? So it applies to what YOU want but not to everything?

I bet there are some who cannot believe Im on this side of the argument.

 

[xfire]

Go back and read my other own words and the argument is entirely consistent. I love how you want to play gotcha and make it a sporting event when in reality it's merely a discussion of differing political opinions. Using current law, of course felons should have their rights restricted, I'm arguing how I think the law should be changed. The title of this thread is "Gun Control is Coming", not how gun control is, and perfectly illustrates the point I made in post #91, it would be impossible to impose "gun control" without affecting other laws. No gotchas here.

 

[Rey C.]

I love it when someone asks for proof, facts or data, then you give them proof, facts and data... and they go silent.

Whether it's crime or a defective manufacturing process, in order to improve a problematic situation, you determine where the problem actually lies and what the most significant contributors are. The DoJ/Bureau of Justice link I provided does that. The other links demonstrate that current laws are not being enforced in certain states, cities and most certainly not by our current administration at the federal level.

So if all I hear about are ideas to add even more meaningless, feel good words on blank sheets of paper, even though the current laws are not being enforced, that is precisely why I roll my eyes when these discussions come up. I want to see a reduction in all types of crime, including violent and firearms related crime. But just creating pleasant imagery from pretty words (that accomplishes zilch) doesn't interest me.

 

[MMMariah]

I didn't go silent, I had shit to do. And I don't see proof and I had to beg for an answer.

You are saying its not fair that convicted felons of ANY crime are prohibited from having guns. You said that the 8th amendment gives them the right to have the same civil liberties as everyone else. So I asked you if the same is true for child molestors and dodged and ducked until you answered "No" because you don't want to be seen defending the rights of child molesters. But according to your reasoning they served the time so they're also free to do as they wish, even around kids.

 

[Mr. Daystar]

What you did was make a ridicules comparison between a punk ass thug, that commits an armed robbery, and a sick degenerate that hurts a child. That's like saying a happy meal at McDonald's, is as good as good as perfectly grilled filet Mignon. While I disagree with X on past violent offenders being entitled to own firearms, I do agree with his point that all violent offenders should sit in a cell for far longer then they do, for crimes involving weapons. Maybe if they enforced the current laws, they wouldn't need more intrusive laws, that fuck the people that respect the law. It is far different to a child molester, or ANY sex offender in any, and every way, shape and form. Why can't you just accept that the man has an opinion that differs from you? He stated his point, and stands by it, but you must, as always, badger and twist and prod, until you think you've done something of value, but all you've done is turn a reasonable debate, into confrontational argument. You seem to have some serious issues with accepting that you are not always right, and the world isn't here to pat you on the back because of your bold liberal ideas.

And for the record, I agree, crimes against children should be punishable by death, and will go on to say, so should crimes against the elderly

I see what you're saying X, but think of it this way, a 19 year old kid, commits an armed robbery, shoots the clerk in a non fatal place....maybe the leg, gets punished severely for it, does a 30 year term, gets out...he's only 49. That's a year younger then me...that's not that old, and still young enough to pick up a gun again, and do wrong. I just feel you are on a slippery slope.

 

[xfire]

She's comparing apples to oranges, but that's alright, I stand by my argument. In the scenario you mention, TWD I would say give the nineteen year old a forty five year sentence, that extra fifteen years would make a huge difference. What I find fascinating is that the consensus so far is against my thesis, I believe that if the laws were changed and punishment really meant something that repeat offenders wouldn't be nearly as prevalent and the idea of giving them back all their rights might gain some support. Ironically enough, most people have had their lives affected by serious crime, whether they themselves broke the law or a close loved one. I worked for TDC for a number of years and saw felons every day, most of them were decent enough people that they deserved a real chance to succeed when they got out of prison. Closer to my heart, one of my nephews was recently charged with some drug felonies and maybe that's why I feel so personally convicted about the issue.

 

[mongo18]

I think a point that's missing here is that nobody needs a gun, people want guns. Let's not even argue about constitutional rights, anyone who can't agree that a gun is a want and not a need is completely unreasonable. Given that nobody needs a gun, why the fuck let someone with a violent criminal past ever touch one again? I'd go even further and say anybody who has an accidental discharge in a populated area should never touch a gun again. Like that asshole whose handgun went off in a church full of people. Why should that waste of space be allowed to carry a gun around in public again, in a place where my kids could be?
You can easily argue that someone with 10 DWIs needs a car to be a productive member of society, but you can't argue that anybody needs a firearm to live.

Also, Xfire, up there you said "Pedophilia is an affliction from which there is no cure." Are you suggesting that violent criminals are all curable by a stint in prison?

 

[MMMariah]

Im only arguing your claim that EVERYONE who serves their time for their crime should no longer have ANY restrictions on them. YOU SAID IT MORE THAN ONCE!!! So I pointed out that if that were the law, then it would allow sex offenders to be free of restrction also.

If your argument is that ongoing conditions and restrictions after the termination of a sentence is a violation of the 8th amendment. You can't pick and choose fellas. So please, tell me where the hole in my argument is?

 

[xfire]

Nobody needs a computer, smart phone, or a television, either, but the Constitution doesn't guarantee the right to own any of those. Hate to break it to you, but in Texas, five years after release even a felon can possess a gun in their personal domicile. I'm not suggesting that violent criminals are "curable" by long prison sentences, I am suggesting that long prison sentences will deprive them of the prime years of their lives and act as a deterrent to future criminal behavior out of both the one being sentenced and other potential criminals. We as a society are quick to condemn others but the way the criminal justice system has changed we're all potential fodder for the machine and anyone could find themselves on the wrong side of a criminal charge. The changes I would like to see would lock the truly violent offenders away for most of their lives where they can't hurt others, and people that commit non-violent crimes wouldn't have to wear the label of "convicted felon" around their necks for the rest of theirs. We have a whole industry whose sole support comes in the form of charging people with crimes that's partly because of the privatization of prisons and the use of the criminal justice system as a means to levy taxes.