"Free will does not exist" - Do you agree or disagree?

[24 Grams]

The truth is in the end opinion is pointless 1) because neither can be completely proven and 2) Even if 'free will' didn't exist the ILLUSION does (i.e. nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow anyway, right?).

But still, for the sake of debate (and I LOVE a good debate) what's your opinions on this.

I no longer believe in 'free will'...too many things we don't decide that ultimately leads to influencing our decisions.

I must mention though, I DO NOT believe in the common definition of 'free will'...'free will' to me does NOT equal the ability to make choices. Computers can make choices and I think we all know computers don't have 'free will'.

'Free will' to me is the ability to make UNCAUSED choices (hence the "free" in 'free will')...I believe it is logically impossible to make uncaused choices.

 

[STDiva]

If the oppposite of free will is predestination, than yes, I believe free will exists. The outcome of my life will be a culmination of the choices I made.

 

[lurkingdirk]

Free will exists, it's just irrelevant. The combined sum of everyone's free will is a generally predictable reality. While predestination may be a stretch, I think established patterns are discernible in human behaviour, and we fall into them easily.

 

[vodkazvictim]

If you decide Free Will doesn't exist, then you've done so of your own free will, n'est pas?

 

[24 Grams]

If the oppposite of free will is predestination, than yes, I believe free will exists. The outcome of my life will be a culmination of the choices I made.

But the culmination of the choices you make are dependent on circumstances BEYOND your control.

Free will exists, it's just irrelevant. The combined sum of everyone's free will is a generally predictable reality. While predestination may be a stretch, I think established patterns are discernible in human behaviour, and we fall into them easily.

I understand what you're sayiing Dirk, but what's definition of free will? And why would predestination be a stretch?

 

[24 Grams]

If you decide Free Will doesn't exist, then you've done so of your own free will, n'est pas?

This on the surface would seem so, but I decided this because CIRCUMSTANCES convinced me otherwise...If I experienced contrary circumstances (e.g. my dad didn't believe in it and preached daily with good reasons) I would most likely believe the opposite.

 

[lurkingdirk]

I understand what you're sayiing Dirk, but what's definition of free will? And why would predestination be a stretch?

A necessary part of predestination is that God creates some people for the purpose of glorifying his name by being damned.

I can't buy it.

 

[24 Grams]

A necessary part of predestination is that God creates some people for the purpose of glorifying his name by being damned.

I can't buy it.

Interesting, I'm partly religious (believe in God but not a Christian) and I DO NOT believe in Hell or the "Damned"...I won't explain why (too long).

I believe we exist to grow...and especially through the experience hardships, the God I believe in would never create a "Hell" (In fact Hell subsists because of old pagan religions such Hades in the Ancient Greek religion).

I don't really want to include religion in this subject though.

 

[lurkingdirk]

Interesting, I'm partly religious (believe in God but not a Christian) and I DO NOT believe in Hell or the "Damned"...I won't explain why (too long).

I believe we exist to grow...and especially through the experience hardships, the God I believe in would never create a "Hell" (In fact Hell subsists because of old pagan religions such Hades in the Ancient Greek religion).

I don't really want to include religion in this subject though.

If you're going talk about free will, I think it is impossible to avoid religion. What is the purpose of free will outside of that? If you do not believe in a higher power, the concept of free will becomes a moot point, doesn't it?

 

[Krazy4Kobe]

NO!


I mean...


Yes.....Master....

 

[gunslingingbird]

I think we have free will to a certain extent. Since I'm currently on the train, I'll use it to illustrate my point. I'm heading to a destination on a fixed track. Barring a derailment (that would really fuck up my evening), there is no other destination where I can end my trip. However, as long as I'm on the train, I can sleep, read, browse the internet, get up and move to another seat or another car, I can gawk at the cute girl sitting across the aisle from me, or a myriad of other things that I have access to. Whatever I choose to do while I'm on the train, however, will not change the destination of my trip.

 

[Harley Spencer]

If you're going talk about free will, I think it is impossible to avoid religion. What is the purpose of free will outside of that? If you do not believe in a higher power, the concept of free will becomes a moot point, doesn't it?

Exactly. The concept of free will is based upon whether or not someone else is controlling your decisions and actions, that someone being of high power.

 

[jod0565]

I had free will to click or not click on this thread.

I chose unwisely.

I'm gonna go Free Willy now.

 

[Facetious]

but what's definition of free will?

Laissez Faire:

is an environment in which transactions between private parties are free from state intervention, including regulations, taxes, tariffs and enforced monopolies. The phrase laissez-faire is French and literally means "let do", but it broadly implies "let it be", or "leave it alone."

:hatsoff:

 

[STDiva]

IMO, to deny free will is to accept a greater power deciding your fate.

 

[Rattrap]

If you're going talk about free will, I think it is impossible to avoid religion. What is the purpose of free will outside of that? If you do not believe in a higher power, the concept of free will becomes a moot point, doesn't it?

Exactly. The concept of free will is based upon whether or not someone else is controlling your decisions and actions, that someone being of high power.

There's also the idea of predetermination; that if all the variables are known, you'd be able to map everything somebody 'chooses'. It's an attractive idea logically, but there are two things which make predetermination moot: the first is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle which effectively states that even if predetermination were a fact, it's irrelevant to us because we can't know all the variables and therefore map out a complete chain of events. However, quantum physics gives us another idea which in fact does away with predetermination altogether: the absolute unpredictability of quantum particles.

Take light for example; that you can see through a window and see your reflection at the same time is because most of the light goes through, but some small amount bounces back. Here's the thing, though: whether a photon goes through or bounces back is completely random. There's absolutely no set of variables to determine which it'll do; all we can talk about is percentages (say, there's a 10% chance it'll bounce).

As for God...well. Here's a doosy for you: Can an omnipotent and omniscient God change his mind?

 

[Ravenholm]

I think the anthem for this thread should be White Wizzard's "Fight to the Death" song. Check the lyrics out.

Don't preach to me about your god-tell me who and what to be
Don't tell me how to live my life or seek my destiny
In the light of choosing to be free my mind will find the way
In the heart and soul of my freewill I'll live another day

Free to choose and to be me
Power rule my destiny

I am a soul of light in overdrive
A stardust rider of the sky
You'll never take me alive
'Cause I'll fight to the death for the light
Forever flying high

Never try to brainwash me into thinking what you believe
Keep your religion to thyself and get away from me
Forever I'll fight to keep my mind and always rule my soul
You'll never gain an inch of your desire to control
The path is clear to fly so high
Like a dragon in the sky

Like an eagle soaring higher
Riding in the wind-never to give in
I will stand my ground forever
Always true to me ‒ forever I shall be.



Free Will kicks ass. Being repressed licks ass.

 

[24 Grams]

There's also the idea of predetermination; that if all the variables are known, you'd be able to map everything somebody 'chooses'. It's an attractive idea logically, but there are two things which make predetermination moot: the first is the Heisenberg uncertainty principle which effectively states that even if predetermination were a fact, it's irrelevant to us because we can't know all the variables and therefore map out a complete chain of events. However, quantum physics gives us another idea which in fact does away with predetermination altogether: the absolute unpredictability of quantum particles.

Good point. But isn't quantum physics still subject to the law of physics? In other words quantum particles are only appear unpredictable because WE can't predict them.

Take light for example; that you can see through a window and see your reflection at the same time is because most of the light goes through, but some small amount bounces back. Here's the thing, though: whether a photon goes through or bounces back is completely random. There's absolutely no set of variables to determine which it'll do; all we can talk about is percentages (say, there's a 10% chance it'll bounce).

Okay, but surely human beings are the sole movers and shakers...why do windows exists? Who is responsible for natural light?

As for God...well. Here's a doosy for you: Can an omnipotent and omniscient God change his mind?

An omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God is perfect. Changing your mind suggests there was something wrong with your initial decision. Besides such a God would operate on a level where time is always present (no past or future).

 

[Neutron66]

Free Ones exists. It's right here!

Oh wait...free will.

Nevermind.

 

[24 Grams]

Put it like this:

We do NOT decide WHERE we are born...we do NOT decide WHEN we are born...we do NOT decide WHO we are born to...we do NOT decide in what condition we are born in...we do NOT decide who our family members are...we do NOT decide what SEX we are...we do NOT decide what RACE we are...we do NOT decide our physical appearance...

...and ultimately folks....we do NOT decide whether we even EXIST.

All these conditions we have absolutely NO control of...and yet all these conditions have 100% influence in our lives and choices.

We humans operate like this: We makes choices, our choices are subject to reason (it is impossible to make a choice without a reason) and our reasons are subject to circumstances.

Circumstances ---->Reason -----> Choices.

Choices are in our control, reasons are partially in our control...circumstances are NOT in our control.

Anyone care to disagree?