Cubs Fans...

[PlumpRump]

I was at the Cubs/Padres game last night, and as it was the anniversary of the "Bartman incident," I got to wondering how Cubs fans viewed the situation years later. I was talking with a few Cubs fans in my section, and it seems like the really, truly believe that Bartman cost them a chance at going to the World Series. I know we have a few Cubbies fans on here (Andronicus, and Icewater I know for sure are Cubs fans) and I guess I'm just still wondering what Cubs fans think.

Do you really believe that Bartman cost the Cubs a shot at the World Series that year? Further more, do you think that Alou would have caught the ball had Bartman not interfered?

I mean, it seems pretty simple to me to just chalk that moment up to a fan making a poor decision at a REALLY inopportune time. After it happened the Cubs still had a 3(?) run lead, and proceeded to give up an 8 spot to the Marlins. Was it Bartman who booted that (potential) double play ball? Or Bartman who missed the cutoff man allowing the runners to advance a base? Was it Bartman who served up a bases clearing double, or choked away a 2 run lead in game 7 the next night? I think Bartman got a really bad shake, the Cubs simply choked away the NLCS and Cubs fans were looking for a goat (pun kind of intended). Why not just blame the guys between the lines taht couldn't get the job done?

So, in all honesty, Cubs fans (or anyone else for that matter), do you really blame Bartman?

 

[PJpenny]

i would hope that by now, cubs fans have stopped blaming Bartman and started looking at the team itself. Unlike with Bill Buckners blunder, no runs scored on Bartmans interference, plus Bartman did what any baseball fan wouldve done whether they admit it or not. Lets not forget that the cubs still had the chance to get out of the inning unscathed after the Bartman interference and they didnt, so i would suggest blaming the team for that collapse. Not a cubs fan, but Just my view of this.

 

[BCT]

No and here's the two main reasons:

1. Gonzalez botched a taylor made double play that would have ended the inning following the incident with Alou/Bartman, sorry but that's not on Bartman!

2. There was still a Game 7!

 

[Icewater Jones]

It was not so much blaming him for the losses, as I never blamed him for that. To me, I just didn't appreciate everything Steve Bartman was. Bartman was everything Cubs fans hate: A yuppie, wimpy looking, naive nerd who looked oblivious to the whole thing. He sat there with those walkman headphones on, and just looked liked a dick about it. With a team with a century of futility, and a crowd full of fans waiting for something or someone to completely fuck up ON THE FIELD, to have someone do it in the stands is almost unforgivable. Yes the Cubs lost that series on the field, but you just can't be the goat or the black cat in this situation.

You just can't.

 

[STDiva]

It was not so much blaming him for the losses, as I never blamed him for that. To me, I just didn't appreciate everything Steve Bartman was. Bartman was everything Cubs fans hate: A yuppie, wimpy looking, naive nerd who looked oblivious to the whole thing. He sat there with those walkman headphones on, and just looked liked a dick about it. With a team with a century of futility, and a crowd full of fans waiting for something or someone to completely fuck up ON THE FIELD, to have someone do it in the stands is almost unforgivable. Yes the Cubs lost that series on the field, but you just can't be the goat or the black cat in this situation.

You just can't.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

 

[fathomite]

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Agreed. So according to you Icewater Jones all baseball fans are only allowed to be overly muscled steroid freaks who get piss and shit their pants drunk and spend the entire game shrieking vile obscenities and racial epithets and getting into fights.

Right.

Certainly makes me want to go to a baseball game and sit in the stands.

You give retarded morons a bad name.

What Cubs fans forget is that 2 TWO other people also went after the ball.

Thing is, the sun came up the next day. The universe didn't end.

 

[BCT]

Agreed. So according to you Icewater Jones all baseball fans are only allowed to be overly muscled steroid freaks who get piss and shit their pants drunk and spend the entire game shrieking vile obscenities and racial epithets and getting into fights.

Right.

Certainly makes me want to go to a baseball game and sit in the stands.

You give retarded morons a bad name.

What Cubs fans forget is that 2 TWO other people also went after the ball.

Thing is, the sun came up the next day. The universe didn't end.

Yes one of the two other guys interfered with the ball almost as much as Bartman, it's just Bartman took the blame because he looked dorky and that's the truth!

 

[STDiva]

It's easier to accept a fan ruined the Cubs chances than to accept the Cubs choked and choked hard.

 

[fathomite]

Yes one of the two other guys interfered with the ball almost as much as Bartman, it's just Bartman took the blame because he looked dorky and that's the truth!

Correction: Bartman got the blame.

 

[BCT]

Correction: Bartman got the blame.

Thats what I meant, thanks lol

 

[PlumpRump]

...To me, I just didn't appreciate everything Steve Bartman was. Bartman was everything Cubs fans hate: A yuppie, wimpy looking, naive nerd who looked oblivious to the whole thing. He sat there with those walkman headphones on, and just looked liked a dick about it. With a team with a century of futility, and a crowd full of fans waiting for something or someone to completely fuck up ON THE FIELD, to have someone do it in the stands is almost unforgivable. Yes the Cubs lost that series on the field, but you just can't be the goat or the black cat in this situation.

You just can't.

I understand your point. But isn't that just an example of the fans searching for a lightning rod of sorts to ground their disappointment? I mean, if you say the game was lost on the field, then why the distaste for Bartman himself?

I get that as a sports fan, especially in Chicago, you really like to see informed and intelligent (not educated necessarily, but sports savvy) fans surrounding you. As a long time baseball fan, I believe that every fan should have the wherewithal to understand that if you're sitting in the front row, you ALWAYS give your home team the chance to make a play on the ball, without exception. But that's in a perfect world. In the moment, can I say I wouldn't have done the same exact thing? Not with 100% certainty.

I guess I just wonder why - if you do indeed, honestly feel that the players were ultimately to blame - include Bartman in the discussion? I understand the "everything Cubs fans hate" bit, but why can't they be 2 separate discussions. I mean I know why, because the 2 are interconnected, but Northsiders have ruined this poor guy's life.

As a side note, I think the "crowd full of fans waiting for something or someone to completely fuck up ON THE FIELD," mentality partially contributes to the lack of success for the Cubs. Every Cubs fan I have ever met seems to carry this attitude. And while I can't say that there are many reasons to think differently about the Cubs' collective prospects for winning in the future, I think the notion that all the fans are expecting an implosion is a very palpable thing for the players and sort of fuels the year in and year out self destruction of the team on a subconscious level.

*I'm a long suffering Padre/Charger fan, so I am not taking jabs at any Cubs fans. Believe me, I get it. But it is just intriguing to hear people's perceptions about the incident.

 

[Ace Bandage]

There was an excellent documentary on last night on ESPN called Catching Hell. It looked at the Bartman incident and the '86 World Series with Buckner. If you ever want an in depth look at the play and analysis about what happened after it, check it out.

Honestly, right after it happened, I blamed Bartman. Every Cub I talked to blamed him as well. He was the perfect scapegoat. It was easy to look at that play and say that it cost us the game and eventually the series. But, in retrospect that's asinine.

What I've often wondered is this: what would I do if I was in his shoes in the heat of the moment? Look at it this way: at that point in the game, the Cubs were up 3-0 in a potential series clinching game. They were five outs from reaching the World Series for the first time since 1945. A souvenir from that game would be priceless. Had I been in Bartman's seat, I probably would have gone for the ball as well. Look at the replays, just about every other person around him is going for the ball as well. I've played baseball since I learned how to walk. I know that I should yield to Alou to let him make the play and get the out. But how many times do you go to a game and get the chance to catch a foul ball, let alone during a home playoff game at Wrigley? Not very often. That's why I think human nature would have kicked in, and I would have tried to catch it just like he did.

October 14, 2003 I was in a campus bar at Purdue celebrating my girlfriend's (at the time) 21st birthday. The place was completely packed with about 90% of the people watching the game and supporting the Cubs. After that foul ball, you could just feel the energy drain out of that room. Where before there had been almost a feeling of euphoria, there was now a sense of uneasiness and dread. It was like an omen. For some reason, everyone knew that we needed that out. Call it pessimism or call it intuition, but we all knew we had just witnessed the turning point of that game.

And sure enough, soon after that, Alex Gonzalez, who incidentally had the highest fielding percentage in the regular season that year, booted a routine ground ball that would have been a double play. And then the Marlins started hitting the cover off the baseball. They put up eight runs that inning and eventually took the game. If Gonzalez had fielded that ball and made the double play to end the inning, nobody here would know the name Steve Bartman. People only started to turn on him when the game went south. He would have been a minor footnote if we had managed to get out of the 8th inning, but it just didn't happen that way.

I knew at the end of game 6 that the series was over. There was no way we were going to win game 7. I knew that as surely as I've ever known anything in my life. I remember tuning in to watch it and being overcome with an unshakable sense of anxiety and dread. And sure enough, even with Kerry Wood in his prime on the mound, we were beaten. In the aftermath of that series, people started to blame Bartman for the loss. It had to be pinned on somebody, and he was the easiest scapegoat.

But I don't blame Bartman now. You can say that he set in motion the chain of events that would lead to the team's undoing, but you can't blame it solely on him. If Gonzo fields a ground ball, or if Wood comes out and shuts down Florida in the seventh game, we never have this conversation. But it didn't happen that way. And many fans will continue to blame the loss on him - fair or foul.

 

[BCT]

Adronicus, that was a phenomenal post! You are right it's a fans natural reaction to go for a foul ball if it's coming at them especially in a huge game like that. As I stated earlier Gonzalez should be to blame, he should have made that play as a professional baseball player, it was inexcusable!

:goodpost:

 

[StanScratch]

Bartman was not the only one who went after the ball...but he was the most visible. If the ball had been hit ever so lighter, the fan in the grey long sleeved sweatshirt would be getting the blame.
But remember, a lot of these are also the same fans which blame a goat. A fucking goat!

 

[PlumpRump]

There was an excellent documentary on last night on ESPN called Catching Hell. It looked at the Bartman incident and the '86 World Series with Buckner. If you ever want an in depth look at the play and analysis about what happened after it, check it out.

Honestly, right after it happened, I blamed Bartman. Every Cub I talked to blamed him as well. He was the perfect scapegoat. It was easy to look at that play and say that it cost us the game and eventually the series. But, in retrospect that's asinine.

What I've often wondered is this: what would I do if I was in his shoes in the heat of the moment? Look at it this way: at that point in the game, the Cubs were up 3-0 in a potential series clinching game. They were five outs from reaching the World Series for the first time since 1945. A souvenir from that game would be priceless. Had I been in Bartman's seat, I probably would have gone for the ball as well. Look at the replays, just about every other person around him is going for the ball as well. I've played baseball since I learned how to walk. I know that I should yield to Alou to let him make the play and get the out. But how many times do you go to a game and get the chance to catch a foul ball, let alone during a home playoff game at Wrigley? Not very often. That's why I think human nature would have kicked in, and I would have tried to catch it just like he did.

October 14, 2003 I was in a campus bar at Purdue celebrating my girlfriend's (at the time) 21st birthday. The place was completely packed with about 90% of the people watching the game and supporting the Cubs. After that foul ball, you could just feel the energy drain out of that room. Where before there had been almost a feeling of euphoria, there was now a sense of uneasiness and dread. It was like an omen. For some reason, everyone knew that we needed that out. Call it pessimism or call it intuition, but we all knew we had just witnessed the turning point of that game.

And sure enough, soon after that, Alex Gonzalez, who incidentally had the highest fielding percentage in the regular season that year, booted a routine ground ball that would have been a double play. And then the Marlins started hitting the cover off the baseball. They put up eight runs that inning and eventually took the game. If Gonzalez had fielded that ball and made the double play to end the inning, nobody here would know the name Steve Bartman. People only started to turn on him when the game went south. He would have been a minor footnote if we had managed to get out of the 8th inning, but it just didn't happen that way.

I knew at the end of game 6 that the series was over. There was no way we were going to win game 7. I knew that as surely as I've ever known anything in my life. I remember tuning in to watch it and being overcome with an unshakable sense of anxiety and dread. And sure enough, even with Kerry Wood in his prime on the mound, we were beaten. In the aftermath of that series, people started to blame Bartman for the loss. It had to be pinned on somebody, and he was the easiest scapegoat.

But I don't blame Bartman now. You can say that he set in motion the chain of events that would lead to the team's undoing, but you can't blame it solely on him. If Gonzo fields a ground ball, or if Wood comes out and shuts down Florida in the seventh game, we never have this conversation. But it didn't happen that way. And many fans will continue to blame the loss on him - fair or foul.

Great post. I appreciate the honesty in your post, esp. the "right after it happened, I blamed Bartman... But, in retrospect that's asinine," bit. Also really liked the fact that you admitted "Had I been in Bartman's seat, I probably would have gone for the ball as well," as I firmly believe 99% of people would have done the same exact thing without even thinking about it. Imagine the relief the people who grabbed for the ball but didn't get their hands on it felt in the aftermath. Great perspective from a Cubs fan, thanks.

I have that "Catching Hell" special on the DVR, pretty anxious to watch it.

 

[PlumpRump]

Bartman was not the only one who went after the ball...but he was the most visible. If the ball had been hit ever so lighter, the fan in the grey long sleeved sweatshirt would be getting the blame.
But remember, a lot of these are also the same fans which blame a goat. A fucking goat!

Two goats, to be exact:

 

[PlumpRump]

...Look at the replays, just about every other person around him is going for the ball as well...

Too true.

 

[Straight Shooter]

There was an excellent documentary on last night on ESPN called Catching Hell. It looked at the Bartman incident and the '86 World Series with Buckner. If you ever want an in depth look at the play and analysis about what happened after it, check it out.

Honestly, right after it happened, I blamed Bartman. Every Cub I talked to blamed him as well. He was the perfect scapegoat. It was easy to look at that play and say that it cost us the game and eventually the series. But, in retrospect that's asinine.

What I've often wondered is this: what would I do if I was in his shoes in the heat of the moment? Look at it this way: at that point in the game, the Cubs were up 3-0 in a potential series clinching game. They were five outs from reaching the World Series for the first time since 1945. A souvenir from that game would be priceless. Had I been in Bartman's seat, I probably would have gone for the ball as well. Look at the replays, just about every other person around him is going for the ball as well. I've played baseball since I learned how to walk. I know that I should yield to Alou to let him make the play and get the out. But how many times do you go to a game and get the chance to catch a foul ball, let alone during a home playoff game at Wrigley? Not very often. That's why I think human nature would have kicked in, and I would have tried to catch it just like he did.

October 14, 2003 I was in a campus bar at Purdue celebrating my girlfriend's (at the time) 21st birthday. The place was completely packed with about 90% of the people watching the game and supporting the Cubs. After that foul ball, you could just feel the energy drain out of that room. Where before there had been almost a feeling of euphoria, there was now a sense of uneasiness and dread. It was like an omen. For some reason, everyone knew that we needed that out. Call it pessimism or call it intuition, but we all knew we had just witnessed the turning point of that game.

And sure enough, soon after that, Alex Gonzalez, who incidentally had the highest fielding percentage in the regular season that year, booted a routine ground ball that would have been a double play. And then the Marlins started hitting the cover off the baseball. They put up eight runs that inning and eventually took the game. If Gonzalez had fielded that ball and made the double play to end the inning, nobody here would know the name Steve Bartman. People only started to turn on him when the game went south. He would have been a minor footnote if we had managed to get out of the 8th inning, but it just didn't happen that way.

I knew at the end of game 6 that the series was over. There was no way we were going to win game 7. I knew that as surely as I've ever known anything in my life. I remember tuning in to watch it and being overcome with an unshakable sense of anxiety and dread. And sure enough, even with Kerry Wood in his prime on the mound, we were beaten. In the aftermath of that series, people started to blame Bartman for the loss. It had to be pinned on somebody, and he was the easiest scapegoat.

But I don't blame Bartman now. You can say that he set in motion the chain of events that would lead to the team's undoing, but you can't blame it solely on him. If Gonzo fields a ground ball, or if Wood comes out and shuts down Florida in the seventh game, we never have this conversation. But it didn't happen that way. And many fans will continue to blame the loss on him - fair or foul.

Catching Hell was really good

 

[fathomite]

It was not so much blaming him for the losses, as I never blamed him for that. To me, I just didn't appreciate everything Steve Bartman was. Bartman was everything Cubs fans hate: A yuppie, wimpy looking, naive nerd who looked oblivious to the whole thing. He sat there with those walkman headphones on, and just looked liked a dick about it.

You obviously know absolutely nothing about baseball, or the Cubs or the Cubs fanbase, which for nigh on 25 years has been comprised primarily of so called 'yuppies.'

And if Bartman as you claim, 'just looked like a dick about it what does that make the shithole scum who threw everything and their children at him and have threatened his life ever since? You obviously approve of their behavior and wish that they had publicly hunted down and murdered Bartman.

 

[Jagger69]

He did what we all would instinctively do. Poor guy was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time.