• Hey, guys! FreeOnes Tube is up and running - see for yourself!
  • FreeOnes Now Listing Male and Trans Performers! More info here!

Abrams Tank Pushed By Congress Despite Army's Protests

Mayhem

Banned
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/28/abrams-tank-congress-army_n_3173717.html

Built to dominate the enemy in combat, the Army's hulking Abrams tank is proving equally hard to beat in a budget battle.

Lawmakers from both parties have devoted nearly half a billion dollars in taxpayer money over the past two years to build improved versions of the 70-ton Abrams.

But senior Army officials have said repeatedly, "No thanks."

It's the inverse of the federal budget world these days, in which automatic spending cuts are leaving sought-after pet programs struggling or unpaid altogether. Republicans and Democrats for years have fought so bitterly that lawmaking in Washington ground to a near-halt.

Yet in the case of the Abrams tank, there's a bipartisan push to spend an extra $436 million on a weapon the experts explicitly say is not needed.

"If we had our choice, we would use that money in a different way," Gen. Ray Odierno, the Army's chief of staff, told The Associated Press this past week.

Why are the tank dollars still flowing? Politics.

Keeping the Abrams production line rolling protects businesses and good paying jobs in congressional districts where the tank's many suppliers are located.

If there's a home of the Abrams, it's politically important Ohio. The nation's only tank plant is in Lima. So it's no coincidence that the champions for more tanks are Rep. Jim Jordan and Sen. Rob Portman, two of Capitol's Hill most prominent deficit hawks, as well as Democratic Sen. Sherrod Brown. They said their support is rooted in protecting national security, not in pork-barrel politics.

"The one area where we are supposed to spend taxpayer money is in defense of the country," said Jordan, whose district in the northwest part of the state includes the tank plant.

The Abrams dilemma underscores the challenge that Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel faces as he seeks to purge programs that the military considers unnecessary or too expensive in order to ensure there's enough money for essential operations, training and equipment.

Hagel, a former Republican senator from Nebraska, faces a daunting task in persuading members of Congress to eliminate or scale back projects favored by constituents.

Federal budgets are always peppered with money for pet projects. What sets the Abrams example apart is the certainty of the Army's position.

Sean Kennedy, director of research for the nonpartisan Citizens Against Government Waste, said Congress should listen when one of the military services says no to more equipment.

"When an institution as risk averse as the Defense Department says they have enough tanks, we can probably believe them," Kennedy said.

Congressional backers of the Abrams upgrades view the vast network of companies, many of them small businesses, that manufacture the tanks' materials and parts as a critical asset that has to be preserved. The money, they say, is a modest investment that will keep important tooling and manufacturing skills from being lost if the Abrams line were to be shut down.

The Lima plant is a study in how federal dollars affect local communities, which in turn hold tight to the federal dollars. The facility is owned by the federal government but operated by the land systems division of General Dynamics, a major defense contractor that spent close to $11 million last year on lobbying, according to the nonpartisan Center for Responsive Politics.

The plant is Lima's fifth-largest employer with close to 700 employees, down from about 1,100 just a few years ago, according to Mayor David Berger. But the facility is still crucial to the local economy. "All of those jobs and their spending activity in the community and the company's spending probably have about a $100 million impact annually," Berger said.

Jordan, a House conservative leader who has pushed for deep reductions in federal spending, supported the automatic cuts known as the sequester that require $42 billion to be shaved from the Pentagon's budget by the end of September. The military also has to absorb a $487 billion reduction in defense spending over the next 10 years, as required by the Budget Control Act passed in 2011.

Still, said Jordan, it would be a big mistake to stop producing tanks.

"Look, (the plant) is in the 4th Congressional District and my job is to represent the 4th Congressional District, so I understand that," he said. "But the fact remains, if it was not in the best interests of the national defense for the United States of America, then you would not see me supporting it like we do."

The tanks that Congress is requiring the Army to buy aren't brand new. Earlier models are being outfitted with a sophisticated suite of electronics that gives the vehicles better microprocessors, color flat panel displays, a more capable communications system, and other improvements. The upgraded tanks cost about $7.5 million each, according to the Army.

Out of a fleet of nearly 2,400 tanks, roughly two-thirds are the improved versions, which the Army refers to with a moniker that befits their heft: the M1A2SEPv2, and service officials said they have plenty of them. "The Army is on record saying we do not require any additional M1A2s," Davis Welch, deputy director of the Army budget office, said this month.

The tank fleet, on average, is less than 3 years old. The Abrams is named after Gen. Creighton Abrams, one of the top tank commanders during World War II and a former Army chief of staff.

The Army's plan was to stop buying tanks until 2017, when production of a newly designed Abrams would begin. Orders for Abrams tanks from U.S. allies help fill the gap created by the loss of tanks for the Army, according to service officials, but congressional proponents of the program feared there would not be enough international business to keep the Abrams line going.

This pause in tank production for the U.S. would allow the Army to spend its money on research and development work for the new and improved model, said Ashley Givens, a spokeswoman for the Army's Ground Combat Systems office.

The first editions of the Abrams tank were fielded in the early 1980s. Over the decades, the Abrams supply chain has become embedded in communities across the country.

General Dynamics estimated in 2011 that there were more than 560 subcontractors throughout the country involved in the Abrams program and that they employed as many as 18,000 people. More than 40 of the companies are in Pennsylvania, according to Sen. Robert Casey, D-Pa., also a staunch backer of continued tank production.

A letter signed by 173 Democratic and Republican members of the House last year and sent to then-Defense Secretary Leon Panetta demonstrated the depth of bipartisan support for the Abrams program on Capitol Hill. They chided the Obama administration for neglecting the industrial base and proposing to terminate tank production in the United States for the first time since World War II.

Portman, who served as President George W. Bush's budget director before being elected to the Senate, said allowing the line to wither and close would create a financial mess.

"People can't sit around for three years on unemployment insurance and wait for the government to come back," Portman said. "That supply chain is going to be much more costly and much more inefficient to create if you mothball the plant."

Pete Keating, a General Dynamics spokesman, said the money from Congress is allowing for a stable base of production for the Army, which receives about four tanks a month. With the line open, Lima also can fill international orders, bringing more work to Lima and preserving American jobs, he said.

Current foreign customers are Saudi Arabia, which is getting about five tanks a month, and Egypt, which is getting four. Each country pays all of their own costs. That's a "success story during a period of economic pain," Keating said.

Still, far fewer tanks are coming out of the Lima plant than in years past. The drop-off has affected companies such as Verhoff Machine and Welding in Continental, Ohio, which makes seats and other parts for the Abrams. Ed Verhoff, the company's president, said his sales have dropped from $20 million to $7 million over the past two years. He's also had to lay off about 25 skilled employees and he expects to be issuing more pink slips in the future.

"When we start to lose this base of people, what are we going to do? Buy our tanks from China?" Verhoff said.

Steven Grundman, a defense expert at the Atlantic Council in Washington, said the difficulty of reviving defense industrial capabilities tends to be overstated.

"From the fairly insular world in which the defense industry operates, these capabilities seem to be unique and in many cases extraordinarily high art," said Grundman, a former deputy undersecretary of defense for industrial affairs and installations during the Clinton administration. "But in the greater scope of the economy, they tend not to be."
 

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
As an Ohioan, I'm glad they're keeping our states economy moving...we were really fucked there for a while, under Taft, but this is just plain stupid. If the people using the equipment are telling you. "it's not broke, don't fix it", then leave it alone. It's obvious these tax dollars could be used elsewhere, but if they HAVE to be used for military, I would rather see them upgrade to a .30 caliber main battle rifle, then the puny 5.56mm bullshit we have now.
 
Meh. If it ends up producing more money for the economy as a keynesian move, rather than as one that benefits the military directly, then it's worth the hassle. To be frank, the strength of modern western armies these days has nothing to do with tank divisions (I'd bet you anything that good bomb detectors are the number one military priority worldwide at the moment), so this is more an exercise in manufacturing subsidising. It just seems to be a mix of coincidence and "patriotism" that it's tanks and not cars or pig iron.
 

Mayhem

Banned
As an Ohioan, I'm glad they're keeping our states economy moving...we were really fucked there for a while, under Taft, but this is just plain stupid. If the people using the equipment are telling you. "it's not broke, don't fix it", then leave it alone. It's obvious these tax dollars could be used elsewhere, but if they HAVE to be used for military, I would rather see them upgrade to a .30 caliber main battle rifle, then the puny 5.56mm bullshit we have now.

Keeping in mind that there are quite a few short/slightly built service members out there, I'd rather see them explore the various 6.5mm offerings that can be retrofitted into the current M16/M4.

Having said that, I'd much rather see the money going to caring for the service members that need it. We're not spending nearly enough on PTSD, traumatic brain injury, suicide prevention, et al.
 

Mr. Daystar

In a bell tower, watching you through cross hairs.
Keeping in mind that there are quite a few short/slightly built service members out there, I'd rather see them explore the various 6.5mm offerings that can be retrofitted into the current M16/M4.

Having said that, I'd much rather see the money going to caring for the service members that need it. We're not spending nearly enough on PTSD, traumatic brain injury, suicide prevention, et al.

I agree with the medical, disagree with the caliber. Gas piston operation will reduce recoil etc., and a 7.62x51 isn't going to hurt a smaller, but properly trained soldier. Having said that, I do see your point about the 6.5, although I don't know much about it...I just feel the whole AR platform needs to be redone in gas piston, and all of the current service rifles reused, and resold, to help finance the cost. Minus the full auto trigger group. Of course, being my wife is a social worker, and works with veterans, it would be a better way to spend a lot of the defense budget they piss away.
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
And people laugh at me when I claim the M1 is 70 tons.
Just check out the article.
As an Ohioan, I'm glad they're keeping our states economy moving...we were really fucked there for a while, under Taft, but this is just plain stupid. If the people using the equipment are telling you. "it's not broke, don't fix it", then leave it alone. It's obvious these tax dollars could be used elsewhere, but if they HAVE to be used for military, I would rather see them upgrade to a .30 caliber main battle rifle, then the puny 5.56mm bullshit we have now.
That's not all; tanks cost a LOT to maintain and a LOT to run (particularily the M1). A lot of people forget that buying it is just part of the cost.
As for .30 cal., look what happened with the M14.
Now installing a Kriss style recoil reduction mechanism may help, however the additional complexity would almost certainly mean cost/weight/reliability issues increase.
I personally favour the AKM, but then again, that's not always the best rifle to use for accurate burst fire.
Keeping in mind that there are quite a few short/slightly built service members out there, I'd rather see them explore the various 6.5mm offerings that can be retrofitted into the current M16/M4.

Having said that, I'd much rather see the money going to caring for the service members that need it. We're not spending nearly enough on PTSD, traumatic brain injury, suicide prevention, et al.
I've heard that 6.5 produces about double the felt recoil of 5.56 for little extra power, but I really can't back that up with personal knowledge or a source, so :dunno:
Now as regards caring for the veterans, caring for them cares for the communities they live in and helps stop the vets causing trouble. Maybe even to the extent that it's ceaper to care for them than extend police resources on them made necessary by a lack of care for them. Worth remembering.
 

Mayhem

Banned
I agree with the medical, disagree with the caliber. Gas piston operation will reduce recoil etc., and a 7.62x51 isn't going to hurt a smaller, but properly trained soldier. Having said that, I do see your point about the 6.5, although I don't know much about it...I just feel the whole AR platform needs to be redone in gas piston, and all of the current service rifles reused, and resold, to help finance the cost. Minus the full auto trigger group. Of course, being my wife is a social worker, and works with veterans, it would be a better way to spend a lot of the defense budget they piss away.

All I know about the 6.5 and 6.8 is what I read. I came across this for informative purposes.

Ballistics.JPG

In terms of your responses involving gas pistons and "properly trained soldiers" I'll say this: I got out in 1995. Obviously things have drastically changed since then. But in my day, Basic Rifle Marksmanship was the stepchild of the Army. Soldiers would shoot 40-50 rounds, twice a year and call it good. Shameful. Anyway, going with a redesigned rifle, let alone expecting the services to get their people to the range to actually become proficient is unrealistic, in my experience. And between the OP and what we know about current events (drone warfare, etc), it's still unrealistic. They're just not going to spend the money. Again, in my experience, they'll spend money on intramural softball quicker than they will on firearms proficiency.

The realistic scenario (not that they're going to do this either) is to keep the M16/M4 platform and make it better. If you guys had made me your write-in candidate in the last Presidential election, like you should have, this would be underway as we speak.:D

BTW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5mm_Grendel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO
 
The M1A1/2 is built to kill other tanks and it's performed exemplary so far. What main battle tanks in (let's be realistic) China or Russia's arsenal can compete with our current Abrams let alone an upgraded version?

It's not a rhetorical question; I honestly don't know.
 

Mayhem

Banned
The M1A1/2 is built to kill other tanks. What tanks in (let's be honest) China or Russia's arsenal can compete with our current Abrams let alone an upgraded one?

It's not a rhetorical question; I honestly don't know.

None. But it's not about tank on tank. It's about combined arms. Hit their airfields with our drones, hit their tanks with our airpower, It their infantry and fortifications with our armor.

The M1 Tank is the best in the world. But just like airpower, it comes down to the operators. As long as .....well everyone is getting the training they need, it's a lock.
 
None. But it's not about tank on tank. It's about combined arms. Hit their airfields with our drones, hit their tanks with our airpower, It their infantry and fortifications with our armor.

The M1 Tank is the best in the world. But just like airpower, it comes down to the operators. As long as .....well everyone is getting the training they need, it's a lock.

The Russians and Chinese have some nasty equipment. They cannot project power like we can in any part of the world so we would win. But in their territory we would not maintain air superiority.
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
the Abrams upgrades are needed.
Yes... But how much weight can one reasonably add to a 72 ton tank?
The M1A1/2 is built to kill other tanks and it's performed exemplary so far. What main battle tanks in (let's be realistic) China or Russia's arsenal can compete with our current Abrams let alone an upgraded version?

It's not a rhetorical question; I honestly don't know.
Sure about that?
Combat record:

Breakdown of losses:

While Russia may have an impressive history of armour production and the original T80 was superior to the M1 (as proved in tests conducted by the yanks if I remember correctly. That testing resulted in up-armouring the M1 and the production of the "silver bullet.) I wouldn't touch a chinese tank and I very much doubt anyone else would.
Just ask Iran and Iraq, both of whom were sold the chinese type 69 during the Iran Iraq war! :facepalm:
None. But it's not about tank on tank. It's about combined arms. Hit their airfields with our drones, hit their tanks with our airpower, It their infantry and fortifications with our armor.

The M1 Tank is the best in the world. But just like airpower, it comes down to the operators. As long as .....well everyone is getting the training they need, it's a lock.
It is about combined arms. Why don't you remind us all about the anti-infantry munitions the M1 brings to the field, talking of combined arms?

You sure about hitting airfields with drones?
You sure about hitting fortifications with the M1?
You sure it's the best tank in the world?
The Russians and Chinese have some nasty equipment. They cannot project power like we can in any part of the world so we would win. But in their territory we would not maintain air superiority.
They do. The Russians are one of only two nations in the world to possess supersonic cruise missiles.
The other one isn't the U.S. It's India (BrahMos).

You sure you'd beat them (and when did this thread become who would win, USA or Russina?)
You sure you can project power better worldwide?
Put it this way, the M1a2SEP weighs 72 odd tons. How quick & easy easy do you think that is to deploy compared to a T90 Vladimir? Or to put it another way; how long did it take the U.S. to deply the M1s to Iraq and Afghanistan? What exactly are those M1s doing in Afghanistan? Anybody heard of them being in any action? Protecting convoys perhaps? After all convoy protection would seem suitable for a turbine powered tank which is frequently claimed to be the fastest in the world...

Perhaps you think that the runway crushing B52 will be able to find more airfields worldwide than the TU95 with the standard rough & ready Russian undercarriage?
Lets not forget that Russia, as the world's LARGEST nation has a de-facto deployability advantage by virtue of her size alone.

Just food for thought...
 
They do. The Russians are one of only two nations in the world to possess supersonic cruise missiles.
The other one isn't the U.S. It's India (BrahMos).

You sure you'd beat them (and when did this thread become who would win, USA or Russina?)
You sure you can project power better worldwide?
Put it this way, the M1a2SEP weighs 72 odd tons. How quick & easy easy do you think that is to deploy compared to a T90 Vladimir? Or to put it another way; how long did it take the U.S. to deply the M1s to Iraq and Afghanistan? What exactly are those M1s doing in Afghanistan? Anybody heard of them being in any action? Protecting convoys perhaps? After all convoy protection would seem suitable for a turbine powered tank which is frequently claimed to be the fastest in the world...

Perhaps you think that the runway crushing B52 will be able to find more airfields worldwide than the TU95 with the standard rough & ready Russian undercarriage?
Lets not forget that Russia, as the world's LARGEST nation has a de-facto deployability advantage by virtue of her size alone.

Just food for thought...

I forgot to add we would lose war in Russian territory because we would not maintain air superiority. In another thread, you already agreed with me that the Russian military is mostly a defensive force; they don't have air lift or sealift assets to project ground forces like the U. S. But they do have a deployability advantage to places close to Russia.
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
I forgot to add we would lose war in Russian territory because we would not maintain air superiority. In another thread, you already agreed with me that the Russian military is mostly a defensive force; they don't have air lift or sealift assets to project ground forces like the U. S. But they do have a deployability advantage to places close to Russia.
You already mentioned that you wouldn't maintain air supremacy over Russia.
I don't remember agreeing on Russia being a defensive force and given the lightweight and high strategic and tactical mobility of their forces I don't consider that to be the case.
 
You already mentioned that you wouldn't maintain air supremacy over Russia.
I don't remember agreeing on Russia being a defensive force and given the lightweight and high strategic and tactical mobility of their forces I don't consider that to be the case.

The U. S. Military Sealift Command probably has more sealift capability then Russia, China, and all of Europe combined. So deploying the Abrams isn't a massive problem. The Russian military looks like a defensive force when you compare it to the Soviet Military.

http://board.freeones.com/showthrea...ilitary-and-thats-a-cut&p=7260033#post7260033
 

vodkazvictim

Why save the world, when you can rule it?
The U. S. Military Sealift Command probably has more sealift capability then Russia, China, and all of Europe combined. So deploying the Abrams isn't a massive problem. The Russian military looks like a defensive force when you compare it to the Soviet Military.

http://board.freeones.com/showthrea...ilitary-and-thats-a-cut&p=7260033#post7260033
However extensive the sealift capability, look at how long it took to prepare for Middle Eastern conflict with little to no enemy naval activity and friendly seaports.
70 ton tanks do not have favourable strategic mobility.
 
Top