Unionized Workers...Good or Bad

[Civickiller80]

I work for a Union that takes a lot of critizism from the public, because I work for the City so when we strike it affects the city in a big way, I was just thinking about creating a poll like this to see what others think...I for one like unions and think they protect workers rights and wages and offer good benefits...some people view unionized workers as being lazy and slackers what are your guys thoughts?....

 

[alexios]

OK...I have many arguments to front on this one, but let's start with this one:

With all the levels of government regulation, such as OSHA, and industry self-regulation, what use do unions have nowadays? Yes, for the early 20th century, they definitely had a use and meaning; however, in the 21st century, they seem to to be only political machines that sucks people's money, create over-paid and under-productive workers which cause companies to be unable to compete with foreign competition, and attempt to buck any management move at anytime regardless of the potential benefits to the company as a whole.

 

[KungFuDude]

In the way you're asking CK, I'd say they are great. As long as the unions are not corrupted by organized crime or some very bad leadership, then they are great. Sadly though, many unions are easily corrupted. The unions have basicly been given a license to ******. You throw some bad apples into that mix and you have real problems.

 

[member2686]

What happened to personal accountability? If you cannot perform your job role consistent with your employer's job expectations, later regret accepting the wage/salary and working conditions to which you agreed when you accepted the job (for which YOU applied), you either get fired or you're well free to resign and find other employment. If your employer breaks the law in your employment, you have legal recourse available to you via employment laws and other laws (depending on the ********* by your employer, such as sexual harassment, etc.).

People don't have a "right" to their jobs. They must perform according to the employment agreement they signed when THEY ACCEPTED the job.

Unions increase the cost of products and services by artificially inflating the wages of union employees. Why should 2 unskilled workers (one on each side of the line) be paid $18 an hour to work in a General Motors factory for putting 2 hubaps each on a car on the assembly line every 4 minutes? Then, when they decide they want more money, longer breaks, and more vacation time, they call the union.

If the union prevails because GM gives into their strike threats (i.e. corporate extortion), guess who pays for it - consumers of GM products through inflated prices. Guess where the economic shift goes - foreign labor/companies where vehicles of equal or superior quality are produced by people who value their jobs and have a superior work ethic - not a feeling of job entitlement.

Union workers are a detriment to a nation's economy, because other non-union employees all over the world are all too happy to take the work. Why do many companies move their factories out of the USA? They do so because their operating costs have become too high because of union workers who feel entitled to what amount to be uncompetitve and inflated wages for similar labor elsewhere. With inflated labor costs, companies become less profitable because they, in turn, are less able to compete in their market. That's why they leave, and that's why I think unions are bad for business and a nation's GDP.

:2 cents:

 

[Rubber Soul]

They suck IMO. These unions are the reason why so many jobs get shipped to other countries. That and retirement plans and cheaper labor. Yes, we have a very low unemployment rate right now but still, the only real businesses that can survive are in retail.

 

[Jiggah33]

nightfly hit it just right, I have never worked in a union job and never had to fear my job could be lost. I work hard, and I do what is asked of me, I don't bitch and grown for more money, and stop working when my demands aren't met. In the opening interview my employers always talk about what I expect to be payed and will be payed, we agree to a number and that is that. Unions have benefits but so do the jobs you work at. Even 7/11 has a benefits package.

I'd give you rep nightfly, but I need to spread it around bud.

 

[4G63]

Unions protect the rights of those workers. You take the unions away, the rights become harder to protect, and the next stop is slavery.

***** Unions. Fight the power.

Fox

I used to work for a union shop, and I hated it. My boss, who was a good man, had to follow very stringent guidelines, like not firing morons, not letting us work overtime, and most importantly we had to pay dues to a union that did jack **** for us. Also we could not receive bonuses for a job well done, we had to take our vacation only at certain times, and we were only guaranteed 30 hours a week I do not like unions.

I now work for a non-union shop. They take care of us much better than the union. Everything is different, I can work as long as I please, people lose their job if they can't or don't work, no dues, bonuses and rewards for working, and I get a 401K and stock options. And most importantly our bosses will go out their way to make our environment better. At the union shop everything had to through the union. Now we can get more done, keep more money, and tailor our shop to our liking.

I think unions are antiquated, the workers in this country are skilled and educated more so than they were at the turn of the century. But that's just my asshole, I mean opinion.

 

[Aegis]

I'd say that it depends on the union and your workplace. You may have bad experiences in dealing with your union, or you may have bad experiences with your boss. No union will be perfect in all situations and nor will any job.
But as a whole, I'm for unions because I do think that they are needed. It is not every employer who will inform the newly employed about everything relevant to the job, and many may even end up firing people for no good reason. I think that people in a way have a right to their job and they definately have the right to a fair treatment.

 

[D-rock]

What happened to personal accountability? If you cannot perform your job role consistent with your employer's job expectations, later regret accepting the wage/salary and working conditions to which you agreed when you accepted the job (for which YOU applied), you either get fired or you're well free to resign and find other employment.

You must think that everybody out there has a vast multitude of good jobs that they can choose from, or that they just choose to work at crappy jobs with little pay and little or benefits because they like it or are to stupid to go somewhere better. Did it ever occur to you that there are people that don't have any real choice in the matter? You don't want to lose your home or starve. It's like if somebody points a *** at your head and tells to do something. You have a choice, you can always choose to die I guess. Companies like to exploit (yes I consider it exploitation) those people because they know they have no other choice. It's just like they exploit foreign workers in sweatshops for cheap labor or the ******* immigrants that come in to this country. Just because some people are willing to work at a wage doesn't make it just for people to take advantage of that. Make no mistake about it, corporations leave because they get cheap labor and I mean near slave wages, the ability to pay no benefits, they don't have to follow as strict environmental controls or no controls at all, no social security, no safety standards, no pension and no retirement plan what so ever, no unemployment compensation, no workmens comp, and no health insurance. I'm sure some *** working in a sweatshop in Bangladesh for 10 cents an hour is "more than happy" to do the work that we are just too “lazy” to do ourselves. Is it a surprise we can't stay competitive? Really all you people that think that unions are the reason jobs get shipped overseas, what would you suggest to compete with this? I’m sure if somebody came into where you work and offered to do your job for 1/40 the cost they pay you for wage and benefits that you would lower what you ask for to match them right away wouldn’t you? Also, for what it's worth, most unions I know don't even have their people making a living wage anymore. Maybe you could lose everything tomorrow, and have to go work a near minimum wage job for a very significant amount of your life. Then perhaps the first time you complain because your employer is treating you like ****, because lets face it, they can get away with it, I could walk in there and tell you to keep quiet and do your God dam job because this is what you choose.

As far as unions go my belief is that in this day in age they are a necessary evil. They are nothing like they used to be, and they used to be good. Some of them are as corrupt as the corporations they are suppose to protect people from. Most of them are not that effective anymore, although a lot of the fault for that is the fact that we have too many wussy ass people that are too willing to cave in now and backstab each other rather than stick together and the fact the government and the people in power have sided more with corporations than their own constituents. There are other bad things unions do, like make it harder to fire people. I get tired when I have to do the work of some other idiot because the union wants to protect people that don't deserve it. Although that was the situation with non-union places also, I really have yet to see anybody get fired for incompetence, especially when they just sent me to do both of our jobs anyhow. In the few rare times it did happen it was to cover another reason they wanted to get rid of them. I also don't like the fact that you pay dues to give people in the union jobs that pay them hundreds of thousands of dollars a year when they do nothing for you.

If I had to choice between a union and a non-union shop though, I would still choose to belong to a union. Even with all the crap they bring now it is still better than not having one. A lot of the stupid ass rules some of them have are to keep corporations from screwing you over. Some of them are quite dumb, but you can blame corporations for much of that. Most places, if they can find a way to rob you of a nickel, they will. It would be nice if we could work for places that didn't only care about the bottom line and screw absolutely everything else, but when greed is involved that isn’t going to happen.

 

[pussy+dickdenice]

Like every weapon, Unionism is a two-way *****. If it is constructive, it helps production and helps to protect the workers.

Otherwise? Guess what should be said.:eek: :fight:

 

[Member2019]

Good, until mandated ...

The study of unions is the study of community.

Most people can't seem to separate the two types of community:
- Communities of individuals who freely choose to organize (individual right)
- Communities of groups who are mandated to organized (community right)

Unions work when people are free to individually choose if they wish to organize. People will choose to organize when an employer is abusive. When the employer is not so abusive, people will be less likely to join an union. It is the greatest example of individuals organizing into a "public good," and a good counter-balance to greedy capitalism. Employers who are ******* their employees will succum to their demands to stay in business. Employees who unionize and ask too much will be fired. All in the meantime, the government guarantees "individual rights."

Unions don't work when people are ****** to organize into unions. Not only is individual choice lost, but the government then begins enforcing "community rights." Those government mandated rights then destroy the balance of a free group against a capitalist employer. In time, then there are laws enacted to counter-balance against the unioning in favor of the employer. As we've seen both in the US and in socialist governments, over decades, you only end up with a set of bureaucratic laws that are pro-union and pro-employer laws that completely hinder the union-employer balance. Employers often either move out-of-state, out-of-country or just go out-of-business. This is why the concept of "community rights," which is the root of the communist manifesto, fails.

The best way to keep the balance in capitalism is to allow people to organize freely, by individual choice, just as businesses are allowed to be formed. You don't start giving community rights to groups, taking away their individual right to choose to join or not, and upsetting that balance, because you'll quickly find yourself doing the same for businesses. And, again, that's why we have this gross, sprawling set of conflicting pro-union and pro-business laws that prevents unions and businesses from working together anymore. The right to assembly must be by individual choice -- which is freedom. The mandated assembly in the concept of a community right over the individual -- which is why communism is mutually exclusive with freedom over time (because it takes away individual choice).

Unions aren't the problem, they are merely an assembly of people, which an individual right in a free society. It's the government laws that take away the free, individual right of assembly and mandate unions that destroy that individual freedom. All while being counter-productive result in upsetting the balance of capitalism -- first with pro-union laws, then pro-employer counter-laws that only increase the bureaucracy and reduce their effectiveness.

 

[E-Ann-Hilden]

Civickiller, I think you live in the Big 3 area?, So I would like fair wages and good benefits that lead to profits that make compaines successful, but not totally bow down to share holder and ludicrais CEO salaries......

 

[Member2019]

Civickiller, I think you live in the Big 3 area?, So I would like fair wages and good benefits that lead to profits that make compaines successful, but not totally bow down to share holder and ludicrais CEO salaries......

The largest problem with American companies these days is the fact that they don't look past 3 years.
That is probably the root cause of everything else.

Although it is nice to see that top-level executive pay is getting somewhat of an adjustment in the last year or so.
I think you'll see more of that, because the days of watching stock prices almost daily are over.

 

[member2686]

You're joking, right? Tell me you're joking. They're not watched "almost daily," but are watched by the second and always will be. Every 10th of a point drop can mean millions or billions of dollars for publicly-traded companies. Investors want and need to know that information, as do the companies themselves!

I can just see it... "Thomas, we rolled out Windows 2007 Monday morning. How's it affecting our market value and what are the sales figures?" "Gee, boss, I don't know. We'll check it Friday."

:wtf: lol

...the days of watching stock prices almost daily are over.

 

[mythex]

every workers should have join the union....

at least they will cover some of your welfare matters

 

[Member2019]

every workers should have join the union....

Because other people know better than you, right?
Individual rights and freedom to assembly are mutually exclusive with group/community rights and mandated membership.

at least they will cover some of your welfare matters

Saying "welfare" is like saying 'rich," there are different types and details.
The only constant is that people demonize the general, instead of getting specific.

 

[pancha]

I think D-Rock nailed it on the head! The Unions are there so that workers, generally, don't get screwed over. When I first started working, I thought unions sucked. I figured that they just took money from me, nothing more.

Now, some smaller retail stores, I don't care for there unions so much. In my experience with them, it DOES seem like all they did was protect employees who SHOULD have lost their jobs for various reasons, and I was pissed that I was contributing money to this.

However, the bigger unions seem to do a better job. I am in one now, and although I pay working dues, quarterly dues, etc., I can AFFORD to because of what I make. Are our services more costly? Absolutely! Does prime rib at a five star restaurant cost more than chicken fried steak at the local truck stop? You bet your ass it does! You get what you pay for!

Now, I can't speak for all of them, but we focus heavily on education and training so that the job gets done efficiently without sacrificing quality. Its my understanding that companies and contractors come from across the country to have us work for them DESPITE our high wages because they believe its worth the investment! This isn't by any means to say that non-union shops have poor quality of work. Some of my good friends are non-union, and they do a great job.

In short, I think the benefits of having unions around far out-weigh the downfalls or short-comings that result due to their existence. We would be in a much more undesireable situation without the existence of labor unions today.:2 cents:

 

[alexios]

OK...can anyone tell me the last time there was a valid unionized movement that WASN'T due to money or additional benefits, i.e. the last time there was a movement that really dealt with worker protection?

 

[member2686]

Worker protection against discrimination and abusive labor conditions by employers, etc. is available without mob-type unions (who extort companies and unduly pass the cost of their extortion of these companies through the companies' inflation of prices for goods and services to you and me) - it's called the judicial system/the courts. There's also the EEOC, OSHA, etc. to be considered. I don't know HOW many EEOC complaints I filed for clients in my past legal work. There IS free assistance out there, either from lawyers working on a contigent-fee basis or through these gov't. agencies.

Unions' times have ******. This has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment and the freedom to associate and organize. If you go into your place of employment and organize a neo-**** group on company time, they'll fire your dumb ass. If you go into your place of employment and try to extort them by forming a "union" that's threatening to "go slow," or not work altogether, because you feel enititled to more pay, you should also be fired for dereliction of job duties/not working/substandard performance in the job that YOU CHOSE to accept and at the wage YOU CHOSE to accept for your work; it's essentially a breach of contract.

There are plenty of people who need work and who will work at a competitive, fair wage because they're willing to do the job as offered, not because they get comfortable in the job and then avarice sets in.

:2 cents:

 

[The Captain]

Worker protection against discrimination and abusive labor conditions by employers, etc. is available without mob-type unions (who extort companies and unduly pass the cost of their extortion of these companies through the companies' inflation of prices for goods and services to you and me) - it's called the judicial system/the courts. There's also the EEOC, OSHA, etc. to be considered. I don't know HOW many EEOC complaints I filed for clients in my past legal work. There IS free assistance out there, either from lawyers working on a contigent-fee basis or through these gov't. agencies.

Unions' times have ******. This has nothing to do with the 1st Amendment and the freedom to associate and organize. If you go into your place of employment and organize a neo-**** group on company time, they'll fire your dumb ass. If you go into your place of employment and try to extort them by forming a "union" that's threatening to "go slow," or not work altogether, because you feel enititled to more pay, you should also be fired for dereliction of job duties/not working/substandard performance in the job that YOU CHOSE to accept and at the wage YOU CHOSE to accept for your work; it's essentially a breach of contract.

There are plenty of people who need work and who will work at a competitive, fair wage because they're willing to do the job as offered, not because they get comfortable in the job and then avarice sets in.

:2 cents:

Sorry, having worked for companies like Wal*Mart, and getting screwwed royaliy by them, and now my most recent employer, and then being told by the government and other legial services that you mentioned that I have no legal options because said companies own the fucking government, I am 100% pro union, and concider any worker that opposes unions to be traitors to their fellow worker, and any company that opposes unions to be an enemy outright.